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EENS - augusztina - 03-23-2010

The doctrine of the Church recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.
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Why or why not?

Help me out here.  Please respond.


Re: EENS - INPEFESS - 03-23-2010

Absolutely not. Baptism of desire is reserved only for those who desire either implicitly or explicitly the sacrament of baptism, not just for men of good will who reject the teachings of the Catholic Church.


Re: EENS - Historian - 03-23-2010

(03-23-2010, 05:27 PM)augusztina Wrote: The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.
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Why or why not?

Help me out here.  Please respond.

So, someone who in good faith does what they consider to be right is saved? Keep in mind most villains believed they were doing right. By this logic, Oliver Cromwell is a saint.

Just trust God to do what is just, as He always has done. Do not be so worried about other people.

Matthew 12:30 Wrote:He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.



Re: EENS - StBrigid - 03-23-2010

I put "I don't know" since it depends on how you think about the Church. If you think of it as only being those who have been accepted into the Catholic Church as seen materially, then no. If you think of the Church as being those who sincerely are in communion with the Catholic Church, whether they know about it or truly have no obstacles (like culture, learning, etc), then yes, I do believe in it.

I believe (in my understanding at least) that that was what Cardinal Ratzinger and the CDF were speaking about in Dominus Iesus.


Re: EENS - Historian - 03-23-2010

I believe that those who suffer invincible ignorance and follow God's law will be saved in Christ's own way.  So did Abp. Lefebvre.  But that isn't baptism of desire.  Baptism of desire is for those who find the Church to be true, desire to be baptized and follow the Church, but die before they are able to.

Those who are invincibly ignorant and are saved goes to God's Justice and His perfect knowledge of the internal forum.  And that includes the determination as to if they are truly invincibly ignorant or just being spiritually lazy.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14763a.htm

Quote:But does the proposition that outside the Church there is no salvation involve the doctrine  so often attributed to Catholicism, that the Catholic Church, in virtue of this principle, "condemns and must condemn all non-Catholics"? This is by no means the case. The foolish and unchristian maxim that those who are outside the Church  must for that very reason be eternally lost is no legitimate conclusion from Catholic dogma. The infliction of eternal damnation pertains not to the Church, but to God, Who alone can scrutinize the conscience. The task of the Church  is confined exclusively to the formulating of the principle, which expresses a condition of salvation imposed by God Himself, and does not extend to the examination  of the persons, who may or may not satisfy this condition. Care for one's own salvation  is the personal concern of the individual. And in this matter the Church shows the greatest possible consideration for the good faith and the innocence of the erring  person. Not that she refers, as is often stated, the eternal salvation of the heterodox solely and exclusively to "invincible ignorance", and thus makes sanctifying ignorance  a convenient gate to heaven for the stupid. She places the efficient cause  of the eternal  salvation of all men objectively in the merits  of the Redeemer, and subjectively in justification through baptism  or through good faith enlivened by the perfect love of God, both of which may be found outside the Catholic Church. Whoever indeed has recognized the true Church  of Christ, but contrary to his better knowledge refuses to enter it and whoever becomes perplexed as to the truth of his belief, but fails to investigate his doubts  seriously, no longer lives in good faith, but exposes himself to the danger of eternal damnation, since he rashly contravenes an important command of God. Otherwise the gentle breathing of grace is not confined within the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who stand afar, working in them the marvel of justification and thus ensuring the eternal salvation of numberless men who either, like upright Jews and pagans, do not know the true Church, or, like so many Protestants  educated in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate her true nature. To all such, the Church  does not close the gate of Heaven, although she insists that there are essential  means of grace which are not within the reach of non-Catholics. In his allocution  "Singulari quadam" of 9 December, 1854, which emphasized the dogma of the Church as necessary for salvation, Pius IX uttered the consoling principle: "Sed tamen pro certo pariter habendum est, qui veræ religionis ignorantia laborent, si ea est invincibilis, nulla ipsos obstringi hujusce rei culpa ante oculos Domini" (But it is likewise certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if their ignorance  is invincible, are not, in this matter, guilty of any fault in the sight of God). (Denzinger-Bannwart, 11th ed., Freiburg, 1911, n. 1647.)

Obviously, Fr. Feeney and the hardcore EENS types disagree with the above.

ETA:

Here is the cite from Denziger

Quote:1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [ 1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

The conclusion is basically: don't worry about others, God will know what to do.  For us, we are required to hold to the Faith and promulgate it.


Re: EENS - INPEFESS - 03-23-2010

(03-23-2010, 08:13 PM)StBrigid Wrote: If you think of the Church as being those who sincerely are in communion with the Catholic Church, whether they know about it or truly have no obstacles (like culture, learning, etc), then yes, I do believe in it.

How are they in Communion with it without being baptized? Doesn't that deny the dogma concerning baptism?


Re: EENS - Historian - 03-23-2010

If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either.


Re: EENS - flannerywannabe - 03-23-2010

what Quis said.


Re: EENS - Walty - 03-23-2010

I answered "I don't know."

I've spent a decent amount of time trying to find a traditional consensus of just what EENS means and I've found no such thing. 

Perhaps this is too simplistic a view but it seems that at one extreme you have the modern ecumenical outlook and at the other extreme you have the Feeneyites.  Where orthodoxy and tradition rest on that continuum (and in what way it rests at that spot) seems to be the oversimplified question.


Re: EENS - kimbaichan - 03-23-2010

I put I agree because I wish it true, but the reality is I don't know. I hope, I hope, I hope.