FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Archives (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Theology and Philosophy (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body (/showthread.php?tid=35330)

Pages: 1 2


Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Walty - 04-06-2010

Can anyone point me toward some more trad leaning critiques of TOB or Christopher West's presentation of it.  I'm looking for articles which point out how and where it deviates from traditional teaching on sex and marriage.  I have the little article by Alice Von Hildebrand and a few others by Fr. Jose Granados and Dr. David Schindler.  I was hoping maybe someone here could bring up a few others that are a bit more concerned with keeping traditional and/or neoscholastic language on this topic.  Thanks.


Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Credo - 04-06-2010

As a piece of advice, if you have not, please read the late pope's works on Theology of the Body. Critiques have their place, but jumping to somebody else’s interpretation of the subject before one is familiar with the same is really doing you a disservice. If you're looking for an evaluation of West’s work, now you're twice removed from the subject. You might hate TOB, you might love TOB. Whatever you do, though, acquaint yourself with the pope's actual Theology of the Body.

To address you question, Catholic Family News did a rather extensive treatment of the subject a couple of summer's back. The only thing which I recall from the series of articles was a rather Victorian squeamishness over the subjects West discussed. I’m almost certain CFN subtitled one of their anti-TOB treatments something like, “TOB deals with topics which can’t be discussed with in a setting with children.” Duh. Neither can geopolitical events, the stock market or the mechanics of a car engine. It doesn’t mean these aren’t legitimate issues in the proper setting.



Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Walty - 04-06-2010

(04-06-2010, 09:21 PM)Credo Wrote: As a piece of advice, if you have not, please read the late pope's works on Theology of the Body. Critiques have their place, but jumping to somebody else’s interpretation of the subject before one is familiar with the same is really doing you a disservice. If you're looking for an evaluation of West’s work, now you're twice removed from the subject. You might hate TOB, you might love TOB. Whatever you do, though, acquaint yourself with the pope's actual Theology of the Body.

To address you question, Catholic Family News did a rather extensive treatment of the subject a couple of summer's back. The only thing which I recall from the series of articles was a rather Victorian squeamishness over the subjects West discussed. I’m almost certain CFN subtitled one of their anti-TOB treatments something like, “TOB deals with topics which can’t be discussed with in a setting with children.” Duh. Neither can geopolitical events, the stock market or the mechanics of a car engine. It doesn’t mean these aren’t legitimate issues in the proper setting.

I've read most of the TOB a few years back and studied it in a few different capacities.  I see some problems with it.  I see even more problems with Christopher West's presentation of it.  I was asking for articles because I need sources for a paper.


Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Credo - 04-07-2010

I see. Write Catholic Family News; see if they can help.


Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Norbert - 04-08-2010

Weird that you should ask.  I'm in a weekly study group of it as of last night, if you want I can post my findings.

So far the only thing discussed that I didn't already think was the statement (I really should read the book for myself) that "Adam contained the fullness of masculinity and femininity, and therefore was not male".  When I asked whether this was JPII's opinion or that of West, they gave me the run around about how "well the pope's book was originally written in a foreign language, and west translated it" (not only kind of redundant, but not what I asked.)

I pointed out that "just because everything is white, does not mean that white contains the essence of "black"" (e.g, just because adam is the only human being does not make him both genders) and that in the fact that Adam could sense he needed a partner, and unlike the trinity was not co-eternal with eve, it's fairly obvious that he wasn't containing the essence of femininity...but I think it fell on deaf ears.


Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Historian - 04-08-2010

Theory about the pre-eve gender of Adam debate is very old.  I doubt this was first addressed in Catholic theology in TOB - it may not even be in there.

If I were you I would do some search on the nature of adam and see what Catholic theologians have said; this may have even been addressed in the time of the Fathers.





Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Walty - 04-08-2010

I'm going off of a couple of articles written by Schindler who is the head of the JPII Institute in D.C.  He's not a trad, but he makes some good arguments regarding West's equating modesty with shame and overlooking the serious consequences of concupiscence in human sexuality.  He talks quite a bit about "pansexuality" in the writing of West which I think is really spot on.  The interesting thing is that, in my opinion, it seems that that criticism can be extended even to the original documents of JPII himself.  All of this talk about the primary meaning of the body being "spousal" seems to negate the primary meaning of the body being that of a filial relationship with God.  This, in turn, makes both celibacy and the unmarried nature of the blessed in the eschaton look as if they are lacking something.  No one wants to take that criticism to the original documents, however, but trads shouldn't be surprised about that.

ETA:  If anyone is interested, you can see this whole running controversy between a number of theologians at various universities at this link: http://www.headlinebistro.com/hb/en/news/jp2_theologyofbody.html

The main players are Smith and Waldstein who support West and defend him against Schindler's arguments.  The site linked above has different critiques and responses all linked on that page.  They go back and forth a few times and I think Schindler writes some incomplete but interesting criticisms of West.


Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - Cambrensis - 04-10-2010

Interesting article by Arturo Vasquez.




Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - formerdatt - 04-22-2010

I have taught from a book titled Theology of the Body for Teens in 8Th grade CCD (now called Faith Education) for the past four years. I am very dissatisfied with it and believe it is targeted too early. These kids are in a coed classroom and 13-14 years old. most are still concerned with chasing eachother with bottle rockets, stealing dad's beer, fishing, and playing sports. All attempts to try to set this aside for later, high school years, are rebuffed by the little old ladies running our religious education program. Their reasoning is that as kids these days are awash in "sex" from TV to video games, and basically all points of the modern world, they need this education/theology at a younger age than I did - I am 60. Sin is not discussed, abstinace is too harsh, so the fruits of martial bliss and finding God through the body of your spouse is stressed. I am either too old and stupid to grasp all this or something else is amiss. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I am just finishing this year's curriculum and need to regroup before another year of the same thing - which is becoming very hard to bear. PS I consider myself a conservative Traditional Catholic. I am a pre-Vatican II kind of guy. If that has any bearing on things I don't know, just thought I'd mention it.
Dave


Re: Critques of JPII's Theology of the Body - SaintRafael - 04-23-2010

Here's some links from a thread I started a couple of months ago titled "Why Christopher West is a danger to the Church" :


The Discipline
http://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2009/11/discipline.html

Here's critique from Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15950f

Fr. Angelo Geiger F.I.

http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/john-paul-the-great-and-hugh-hefner-the-magnificent/

Christopher West's blind spot
http://dawneden.blogspot.com/2009/05/christopher-wests-blind-spot-guest-post.html

Virgo redacta Christopher West and the dangers of overanalogizing Mary
http://dawneden.blogspot.com/2009/06/virgo-redacta-christopher-west-and.html

David L. Schindler
http://www.headlinebistro.com/hb/en/news/west_schindler2.html

James Likoudis

profoundly troubling idea of Christian freedom
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17772

Randy Engel's article about West and sodomy
http://lesfemmes-thetruth.blogspot.com/2009/06/sodomy-and-theology-of-body-death-of.html