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When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - Printable Version

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When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - salus - 05-04-2010

I keep hearing so-called catholics saying that if a person is ignorant of the need to accept Jesus and enter his church , that person can be saved. Doesn't these so-called ignorant people sin ,are they holier than the great saints who were worried continually about falling into mortal sin.  Ignorance "may" excuse you from a certain sin but its not another way to get to heaven. But i guess the Novus Ordo crowd figures why waste their time evangelizing  when your ok , im ok. Dont preach the faith to others but explain away the faith using nuances and other sleight of hands words making excuses.


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - F-14 Dave - 05-04-2010

Don't get me started on this one.  This is a recurring argument I have with some close 'Catholic' friends of mine. This is the same crowd that insists on turning the exception into the rule.

The problem is that they expand the definition of 'invincibly ignorant' to include just about everyone except unrepentant atheists. 

Ironically, they don't extend the same benefit to orthodox Catholics.  It's whack.


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - glgas - 05-04-2010

The question you should ask, when did the Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus principle be interpreted exclusively to the membership of the militant Church.

The Church Father truly believed that Church existed since the beginning of the word. The Enchiridion Patristicum quotes Hermes the Pastor, Clement Rome from the 1st Century, but that was the opinion of Augustinus and also Gregorius Magnus.

If the Church is wider than the militant Church, but we shall not claim ignorantia (about the militant Church)  but can sincerely believe that the membership of the Church is the judgment of God, and not their judgement.

It is needless to say, that people who adamantly quote

John 3:5 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

did not cut off their right hand for some truly objectionable actions, they interpret the words of our Lord according to their desires.


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - Credo - 05-04-2010

salus Wrote:i guess the Novus Ordo crowd figures why waste their time evangelizing  when your ok , im ok.

What are you talking about? The Church is growing by leaps and bounds in the African and Asian missions. Each day more and more of mankind is coming to know Jesus Christ.


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - Tim - 05-04-2010

You might want to read on this subject at Athanasius Contra Mundum. He has a very good article on EENS there, it's down two or three articles from the top.

http://athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/

tim


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - Historian - 05-05-2010

I agree with George.  At lot of it is that people misunderstand invincible ignorance.

The doctrine reads in Denziger:

Quote:1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [ 1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

It absolutely does not say that one can belong to any religion and it doesn't matter.


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - glgas - 05-05-2010

(05-05-2010, 11:01 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: I agree with George.  At lot of it is that people misunderstand invincible ignorance.

The doctrine reads in Denziger:

Quote:1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [ 1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

It absolutely does not say that one can belong to any religion and it doesn't matter.

If someone achieved the end, and this end is eternal it absolutely does not matter any more, what were the means to achieve that end.

If you see the things from our point of view we should do everything (except to judge, which belongs to God) to let people to get to the true religion, to the Jurisdictional Hierarchical Church. We shall pray for them

1648 But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth
continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to
Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in
proportion to our strength, "for the hand of the Lord is not shortened"
[Isa. 9:1] and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting those
who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light. Truths of
this sort should be deeply fixed in the minds of the faithful, lest
they be corrupted by false doctrines, whose object is to foster an
indifference toward religion, which we see spreading widely and growing
strong for the destruction of souls.


we shall push our children and grandchildren toward the priesthood so that there will be enough workers for the harvest, or the younger man shall work and pray for their own vocation (calling by the Bishop for ordination) ; we shall trust ourselves to the living Magisterium which is the depository of the truth even if our conscience arises doubts, or at least we shall work hard with prayer and self denial for be enlightened, and to let our doubt resolved

but we shall not to do, it is to judge and believe that we are the depository of the truth.




Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - James02 - 05-05-2010

Quote: let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

Worth a requote.



Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - Augstine Baker - 05-05-2010

(05-05-2010, 12:51 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

Worth a requote.

There's a Franciscan Church in San Francisco close to the wharf which has that inscription on it.  It's so unavoidable I'm surprised that they haven't taken a jackhammer to it, but then, they could always make it decorative and irrelavent by encouraging people's general appreciation of the building and people's understanding of religion in general as a purely subjective and aesthetic experience without substance.


Re: When did Invincible Ignorance become salvific? - Bonifacius - 05-05-2010

(05-05-2010, 11:01 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: I agree with George.  At lot of it is that people misunderstand invincible ignorance.

The doctrine reads in Denziger:

Quote:1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [ 1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

It absolutely does not say that one can belong to any religion and it doesn't matter.

Because one is innocent of the sin of conscious paganism does not free one from Original Sin or the other mortal sins one may have committed.  This says, "No harm, no foul."  But we don't go to Heaven by default, either.  We need to be in the state of grace and hence in the Church.  So the absence of personal sin is not enough.