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What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Printable Version

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What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Ravenonthecross - 06-02-2010

What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?"

I know that the Church has her own form and view regarding Predestination, as scripture does speak of Christ being "predestinated."


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Vetus Ordo - 06-02-2010

As always, CE has a good article on this subject as well:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - glgas - 06-02-2010

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Vetus Ordo - 06-02-2010

(06-02-2010, 02:52 PM)glgas Wrote: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

You love modernism, don't you?


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Ravenonthecross - 06-02-2010

Actually: No, I do not Vetus Ordo; I despise it, as I despise all heresies.   Luther's sect and the proponents thereof; as well as all Protestants:  are still anathematised and condemned by the Holy Synod of Trent: till they abjure their error and repent; lest they run head-long into Eternal Perdition and Hellfire.

Fraternising  with such unrepentant heretics with this irenicism can only lead to apostasy or heresy by those who would countenance such endeavours.

and the goal of true-christian unity: that is the abjure of one's errors [in this case, the heresies of Protestantism] and a return to the true Catholic religion and Holy Apostolic Catholic Roman Church; whereof is the only true faith and religion our Saviour Jesus Christ gave us in his only Universal Catholic Church, outside of which there is absolutely No salvation [which is immutable dogma].


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Texican - 06-02-2010

(06-02-2010, 04:00 PM)Ravenonthecross Wrote: Actually: No, I do not Vetus Ordo; I despise it, as I despise all heresies.   Luther's sect and the proponents thereof are still anathematised and condemned by the Holy Synod of Trent: till they abjure their error and repent; lest they run head-long into Eternal Perdition and Hellfire.

I think that was directed at glgas.


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Vetus Ordo - 06-02-2010

(06-02-2010, 04:05 PM)Texican Wrote:
(06-02-2010, 04:00 PM)Ravenonthecross Wrote: Actually: No, I do not Vetus Ordo; I despise it, as I despise all heresies.   Luther's sect and the proponents thereof are still anathematised and condemned by the Holy Synod of Trent: till they abjure their error and repent; lest they run head-long into Eternal Perdition and Hellfire.

I think that was directed at glgas.

Precisely.


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - SouthpawLink - 06-02-2010

There are a few models of how Predestination works, most notable of which are Thomism and Molinism. The Church allows for both models (Cf. Den. 1090), and as she has not made a final decision on the matter, forbids either group from condemning the other (the debate seems to have started after the Council of Trent).  What is quite certain, however, is that while God does predestine certain men to salvation, He predestines no one to hell. The Church has condemned double predestination several times (e.g., Second Council of Orange, Third Council of Valence), and the most well-known teacher of that false doctrine is John Calvin.

Thomism - God saves men without consideration of their foreseen merits (God bestows on men grace which will infallibly secure their salvation). See ante praevisa merita.

Molinism - God saves men with consideration of their foreseen merits (i.e. He foresees how men would react to the grace He'd give them and acts accordingly). See post and propter praevisa merita.

Dr. Ott discusses this issue in some detail in his Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, pp. 243-244.

Ultimately, "Predestination ... is an unfathomable mystery" (Ott, Ibid., p. 244).


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - Ravenonthecross - 06-02-2010

(06-02-2010, 04:32 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-02-2010, 04:05 PM)Texican Wrote:
(06-02-2010, 04:00 PM)Ravenonthecross Wrote: Actually: No, I do not Vetus Ordo; I despise it, as I despise all heresies.   Luther's sect and the proponents thereof are still anathematised and condemned by the Holy Synod of Trent: till they abjure their error and repent; lest they run head-long into Eternal Perdition and Hellfire.

I think that was directed at glgas.

Precisely.
I know and realise this, Vetus. I was merely commenting upon my hatred of the (Neo)-Modernist Heresy.


Re: What exactly is the Church's view on "Predestination?" - James02 - 06-02-2010

Quote: Molinism - God saves men with consideration of their foreseen merits
I would restate that as He foresees the outcome, and creates His sovereign plan based on that for His own purposes.  So He wants to save Bill (and we have no idea why), He knows if He puts Bill in His plan in a certain situation (say born in Ireland vs. being born to naked savages) that Bill will be baptized and have Faith in Jesus.  So God creates the world where Bill is born in Ireland, and then Bill freely chooses Faith in Jesus.  Furthermore, God is giving Bill Graces at all times.  Bill's role is that he is cooperating with that Grace.

I think it is erroneous to say God creates men in a certain situation because He foresees them meriting their salvation.  I guess that is somewhat true, in that He sees they will be saved in that situation, and we must gain merit in this life, but it  seems borderline heresy to me if you go further and say He chooses to save Bill BECAUSE Bill will merit it.  We don't know why Bill is saved but Paku goes to hell.  That is up to God.