FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Offertory prayer. - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Archives (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Theology and Philosophy (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Offertory prayer. (/showthread.php?tid=37120)



Offertory prayer. - glgas - 06-21-2010



This is a problem for me since long time, may be somebody can enlighten me.

I consider only that part of the Offertory which is different between TLM and the New Mass, and do not consider the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas prayer neither, since that is the repetition of the invocation of the whole Church to witness the sacrifice. So let consider only the Suscipe Sancte Pater and the Lavabo. The prayers in between refer to the coming consecration (Deus qui humanae substantiae) and ask to extend that benefits.

The priest acknowledges that he is sinner (ego indignus famulus tuus .. pro innumerabílibus peccátis, et offensiónibus, et neglegéntiis meis,)

in his own name (ego ... offero tibi)

offers a piece of bread (immaculatam hostiam)

and a few moments and prayers later claims that

the people around him became innocent (inter innocentes)

and he himself too became innocent (ego autem in innocentia mea ingressus sum).

If we take the words seriously what changed the priest from sinner to innocent? The recall of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ will come leather in the consecrations, we live in time. Above that we human beings are insufficient to redeem ourselves from the consequences of the sin.

Was not the 1970 Mass right to skip this problem?


Re: Offertory prayer. - Resurrexi - 06-30-2010

If I am not mistaken, the "innocentes" mentioned in the Lavabo refer not to the laity, but to the throngs of angels present during the celebration of the Mass.


Re: Offertory prayer. - glgas - 06-30-2010

(06-30-2010, 12:07 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: If I am not mistaken, the "innocentes" mentioned in the Lavabo refer not to the laity, but to the throngs of angels present during the celebration of the Mass.

I do not see any ground for this interpretation, and still leaves the problem with the  purification of the priests by an Old Testament like food sacrifice. A passage from Ps 50 would be more appropriate and ambivalence free

50:8 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: * thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
50:9 To my hearing thou shalt give joy and gladness: * and the bones that have been humbled shall rejoice.
50:10 Turn away thy face from my sins, * and blot out all my iniquities.
50:11 Create a clean heart in me, O God: * and renew a right spirit within my bowels.
50:12 Cast me not away from thy face; * and take not thy holy spirit from me.
50:13 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, * and strengthen me with a perfect spirit.


The moral is that we human beings are not capable to think clearly w/o ambivalence. The offertory prayer is the recall of the Old Testament sacrifices when that was all what we men have, and that give some purification. I quoted this example only because some people here boast about the unquestionable clarity of the TLM. We need the Magisterium because we are fallible.


Re: Offertory prayer. - FatherCekada - 07-01-2010

(06-21-2010, 08:37 PM)glgas Wrote: This is a problem for me since long time, may be somebody can enlighten me.

I consider only that part of the Offertory which is different between TLM and the New Mass, and do not consider the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas prayer neither, since that is the repetition of the invocation of the whole Church to witness the sacrifice. So let consider only the Suscipe Sancte Pater and the Lavabo. The prayers in between refer to the coming consecration (Deus qui humanae substantiae) and ask to extend that benefits.

The priest acknowledges that he is sinner (ego indignus famulus tuus .. pro innumerabílibus peccátis, et offensiónibus, et neglegéntiis meis,)

in his own name (ego ... offero tibi)

offers a piece of bread (immaculatam hostiam)

and a few moments and prayers later claims that

the people around him became innocent (inter innocentes)

and he himself too became innocent (ego autem in innocentia mea ingressus sum).

If we take the words seriously what changed the priest from sinner to innocent? The recall of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ will come leather in the consecrations, we live in time. Above that we human beings are insufficient to redeem ourselves from the consequences of the sin.

Was not the 1970 Mass right to skip this problem?

You are hopelessly mixed up. Do some research, for heaven's sake. Read Gihr.


Re: Offertory prayer. - SaintSebastian - 07-01-2010

(07-01-2010, 06:24 AM)FatherCekada Wrote:
(06-21-2010, 08:37 PM)glgas Wrote: This is a problem for me since long time, may be somebody can enlighten me.

I consider only that part of the Offertory which is different between TLM and the New Mass, and do not consider the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas prayer neither, since that is the repetition of the invocation of the whole Church to witness the sacrifice. So let consider only the Suscipe Sancte Pater and the Lavabo. The prayers in between refer to the coming consecration (Deus qui humanae substantiae) and ask to extend that benefits.

The priest acknowledges that he is sinner (ego indignus famulus tuus .. pro innumerabílibus peccátis, et offensiónibus, et neglegéntiis meis,)

in his own name (ego ... offero tibi)

offers a piece of bread (immaculatam hostiam)

and a few moments and prayers later claims that

the people around him became innocent (inter innocentes)

and he himself too became innocent (ego autem in innocentia mea ingressus sum).

If we take the words seriously what changed the priest from sinner to innocent? The recall of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ will come leather in the consecrations, we live in time. Above that we human beings are insufficient to redeem ourselves from the consequences of the sin.

Was not the 1970 Mass right to skip this problem?

You are hopelessly mixed up. Do some research, for heaven's sake. Read Gihr.

I don't know if he's hopelessly mixed up on this issue--in fact, the problem glgas is seeing seems to be acknowledged by Gihr as an impression that one can easily draw from the prayer.

"Among the innocent I will wash my hands" how can the priest pray thus? Does he not live in the midst of the world, where by reason of human frailty, carelessness and attachment to earthly  things, the luster of the soul's purity is in a greater or less degree most easily tarnished? Such is, in truth, the case, and a good priest  feels convinced of it; but he is also daily intent on destroying within his heart the love of the world, sensuality and all selfishness, in order that his soul may be purified more and more in the fountain of the Precious Blood of Jesus and in the stream of tears of penance and sorrow. Hence he may well protest, that in his innocence he would wash his hands, and thus with pure hands "advance to the  altar." Yes, it behooves those hands to be clean which he is to raise in supplication and prayer to God; clean must be the hands that are to touch, to offer and to dispense the most holy, spotless Victim."

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: Dogmatically, Liturgically and Ascetically Explained, pg. 543-4.



Re: Offertory prayer. - glgas - 07-01-2010

(07-01-2010, 06:24 AM)FatherCekada Wrote: You are hopelessly mixed up. Do some research, for heaven's sake. Read Gihr.

The problem of the sacrifice before the Sacrifice was always an issue. The answer is verbalized by St Paul from the Sext for the office of the Precious Blood

Heb 9:13-14
If the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the Blood of Christ, Who through the Holy Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge our conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?

The moral is, that even an over 1000 years old liturgical text requires benevolent interpretation, if one want he can find negativees in it, as you do with the New Mass.

We are fallible and ambivalent. This is why we need the living Magisterium, which under Christ's guidance interprets the unchanged  truth of the revelation for our situation, how it fit to the spots emphasized today.

The New Mass found it easier to avoid this problem, instead of defending the absolute necessity to recall the Old Testament's sacrifices.