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Re: Evolution - The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010

(12-31-2010, 09:25 PM)Grasshopper Wrote: For what it's worth, I also thought that "Read the thread" was a bit snippy -- especially given that it's a 19-page thread. We are used to being a bit snippy with each other from time to time, but I agree that a priest deserves a little more respect. And even though I disagree with Father on these issues (evolution and Biblical literalism), I will be happy to discuss it respectfully with him.

Ok, you're right: Father, I humbly apologize!

As someone who has the power to call down the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our very Creator to the altar, you are worthy of more respect than any earthly king who has ever lived, or anyone else for that matter!

The level of blind refusal to acknowledge facts - and falsely accusing people of not being faithful to Catholic doctrine (a serious sin in itself) - in this thread does make me snippy whenever I return to it.  Again, I humbly apologize.

Happy New Year to all.


Re: Evolution - Nic - 01-01-2011

(12-31-2010, 09:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(12-30-2010, 05:28 PM)Nic Wrote: You're a Catholic for God's sake!  You would rather trust in modern atheistic science than what you should know to be absolutely infallible truth!  Scripture, Tradition and Magesterium have shut the door on the possibility of evolution and any fanciful interpretations of Genesis (like cramming billions of years in between two verses!).  If you cannot accept that truth and try to find ways to weasel around it, then I honestly don't know what else to tell you.

Substitute "Protestant fundamentalist" for "Catholic" and this statement might make sense. The Catholic Church has never condemned the theory of evolution, and it no longer insists on a literal reading of Genesis. There is nothing un-Catholic about my views on these subjects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution

I tell you, some Catholics think that unless the Pope speaks direct words, then matters are open.  The Church doesn't have to openly and directly condemn evolution, because Scripture, Tradition and previous Magesterium have already locked that door!  It doesn't take a genius to see that.  This is the exact same thing that goes on in the post-conciliar Church with A LOT of other things - including the unveiling and women lectors, two things that are explicitly commanded and condemned in infallible Holy Scripture, and two things that the Tradition of the Church condemned for 1930 years, but the Modernists make excuses to get around them by stating that "the Pope hasn't made a direct proclamation in our own age."  We are Catholics, people, not robots, we have minds of our own that can be used to read Scripture and study Tradition as well as previous declarations of the Magesterium.  Molecules-to-man Evolutionism is condemned by the Catholic Church, plain and simple - you just have to use your mind to move all of the pieces of the puzzle into proper order, and the whole picture is a blatant condemnation of evolutionism.  Therefore, the modern pope doesn't have to make any direct proclamation on the issue, because it is already condemned - as if any modern pope or Magesterium would, they are just as much a slave to man's all-knowing attitude as anyone else is these days, and are probably too afraid to upset the poor atheistic evolutionists - but in reality the modern Magesterium lacks the proper faith necessary in condemning evolution outright and directly as a whole, they are too afraid of what may happen.

The same thing goes with the age of the earth - we have infallible Scripture telling us, the Magesterium telling us that "Genesis doesn't contain purified myths," and the Church Fathers agreeing with the Biblical account of the age of the earth, all who commented on the age of the earth agreed with the Genesis account - and we have Tradition agreeing with both.  Therefore, there is really no need for the Church to make a direct proclamation concerning the age of the earth - we can see it for ourselves, and it is around 6,500 years.


Re: Evolution - Grasshopper - 01-01-2011

(01-01-2011, 07:59 AM)Nic Wrote:
(12-31-2010, 09:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(12-30-2010, 05:28 PM)Nic Wrote: You're a Catholic for God's sake!  You would rather trust in modern atheistic science than what you should know to be absolutely infallible truth!  Scripture, Tradition and Magesterium have shut the door on the possibility of evolution and any fanciful interpretations of Genesis (like cramming billions of years in between two verses!).  If you cannot accept that truth and try to find ways to weasel around it, then I honestly don't know what else to tell you.

Substitute "Protestant fundamentalist" for "Catholic" and this statement might make sense. The Catholic Church has never condemned the theory of evolution, and it no longer insists on a literal reading of Genesis. There is nothing un-Catholic about my views on these subjects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution

I tell you, some Catholics think that unless the Pope speaks direct words, then matters are open.

Please read the Wikipedia article that I referenced. Several Popes have spoken direct words on these subjects, including "pre-conciliar" Popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII. Catholics are allowed to believe the Theory of Evolution, and Catholics are not required to interpret Genesis literally, and both of these pre-date Vatican II. Of course, the opposite beliefs are also allowed, and I will not question your Catholicism for holding those beliefs. Please allow me the same respect.


Re: Evolution - Nic - 01-01-2011

That article on "wikipedia" (a known defender of true Catholicism lol - and one that you seem to endlessly link insteaed of traditional Catholic sources) actually does more damage to those who hold to evolution than to promote it - that is all the way up to where John Paul II is introduced, but go figure.

Pope Leo stated concerning Scripture:  Catholic scholars should not "depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires."  This alone reduces evolution and the fanciful interpretation of Genesis to dust, for there is no reason or necessity to interpret Genesis any other way but literally concerning previous Magesterium and the Tradition of the early Church Fathers.

Also, the German bishops of the Council of 1860 (Cologne, I believe) pronounced:

Our first parents were formed immediately by God. Therefore we declare that the opinion of those who do not fear to assert that this human being, man as regards his body, emerged finally from the spontaneous continuous change of imperfect nature to the more perfect, is clearly opposed to Sacred Scripture and to the Faith.

To this, absolutely NO Vatican response was made, which implied total agreement.

What Pius XII did was merely allow query into the theory of evolution, NOT acceptance.  This is something that Catholic "theistic" evolutionists tend to ignore and misinterpret in trying to accomodate their unScriptural and unTraditional beliefs.  Pius XII also rejected polygenism, which evolutionists promoted completely.  Pius XII stated that Catholics were especially NOT able to believe in many first parents - this condemnation in itself destroys the ability to equate molecules-to-man evolution with revealed Truth.  Still, "theistic" evolutionists will try to work around this ever-so damaging condemnation, creating quite silly schemes in the process.

The truth of Creationism is a huge part of the very foundation of our Faith.  Christ spoke of it, the Apostles, the early Fathers, the Medievals - all through history this truth has been proclaimed - only overshadowed by man and his arrogance in these modern times,for man needed a system of belief that totally removed God from the equation so man could worship himself.  This truth is almost intertwined into our very being, with the VAST majority of Americans holding to Creation over evolution in spite of it being force fed to them at every turn.


Re: Evolution - Grasshopper - 01-01-2011

(01-01-2011, 09:15 AM)Nic Wrote: That article on "wikipedia" (a known defender of true Catholicism lol - and one that you seem to endlessly link insteaed of traditional Catholic sources) …

Please show me where I have “endlessly” linked to Wikipedia. I have posted close to 200 times on this forum, and have referenced Wikipedia maybe half a dozen times – and two of those are just pointing people back to my original citation of this article.

Believe it or not, there are all kinds of good sources of information out there. Some of them are “traditional Catholic sources” and some are not. Wikipedia happened to be the easiest place to find what I was looking for, which was the history of the Church’s teaching on evolution and Biblical literalism. I believe all the quotes from Popes and Church documents in that article are accurate. If you don’t think they are, one of the great things about Wikipedia is that it gives sources and references, so you can check for yourself.

Quote:Pope Leo stated concerning Scripture:  Catholic scholars should not "depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires."  This alone reduces evolution and the fanciful interpretation of Genesis to dust, for there is no reason or necessity to interpret Genesis any other way but literally concerning previous Magesterium and the Tradition of the early Church Fathers.

You don’t want to admit it, but reason does make a literal interpretation of Genesis untenable, and later Popes have made that explicit. Modern science shows the earth to be much older than 6500 years, and since you seem to be ignoring it, I will repeat my assertion that this includes several different branches of science, and is independent of whether or not the theory of evolution is true. If you want to hold to a young earth theory, you have to throw out almost all of modern science, and then you better not ever get on an airplane or use a computer, because those technologies (as well as a host of others) depend on modern science.

Quote:The truth of Creationism is a huge part of the very foundation of our Faith.  Christ spoke of it, the Apostles, the early Fathers, the Medievals - all through history this truth has been proclaimed - only overshadowed by man and his arrogance in these modern times,for man needed a system of belief that totally removed God from the equation so man could worship himself.  This truth is almost intertwined into our very being, with the VAST majority of Americans holding to Creation over evolution in spite of it being force fed to them at every turn.

The majority of Americans are not Catholics, and the VAST majority of those who are, are not traditional Catholics. If you’re going to be a slave to majority opinion, you should start attending the Novus Ordo Mass, or better yet, become a Protestant – because that’s what the majority of Americans do. I don’t care about majorities – I care about truth. And I’m not willing to discard all of modern science just to preserve a literal interpretation of Genesis that even the Church no longer insists on.

We are starting to repeat ourselves, so I’m going to stay out of this thread for the most part. You’ve made your case; I’ve made mine. Others can decide who makes more sense. I’m going to start doing more productive things than arguing with you.



Re: Evolution - Nic - 01-01-2011

Actually, true modern, cutting-edge science shows the earth to be quite young, it is just that the vast amount of evidence that indicate a young earth is ignored and/or actually hidden away from the majority of the public.  When scientists ignore the absolute magnitude of such a cataclysmic event as a worldwide Flood, MAJOR errors will creep into the sciences.  Of course, atheistic science has an agenda from the beginnings of Darwinism, the system they used to remove God from the equation.  Since evolutionism and atheistic science is the status quo within the scientific community, further research into a young earth is ignored, hidden or simply not done - and scientists who dissent from Darwin are ridiculed, and Creationists are simply NOT allowed to publish in major scientific journals.  Thus there is a monopoly of evolution.

Besides, modern atheistic science cannot plausibly explain the earth's major features - Creation science can (most notably the brilliant hydroplate theory of Dr. Walt Brown).  Modern atheistic science cannot explain things like the rock strata in a way that is agreeable with the very basic rules of science - Creation science can (the only plausible way for the rock strata to be produced is through the scientific process of liquefaction, the result of a major worldwide flood).

Also, evolutionists have to issue HUGE assumptions to make any of their pet-theories even work, such as life coming from non-life, breaking the rule of Biogenesis - and dark matter, something that has never been observed and is an absolute necessity to make the "Big Bang" theory even work.  This is NOT true science.


Re: Evolution - justlurking - 01-01-2011

I have no read the whole thread, but I am going to make a simple point, if there were not many parents, then the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve had sex with each other, incest has never been good.

That or God created other people which were not written in the bible.


Re: Evolution - Nic - 01-01-2011

(01-01-2011, 05:35 PM)justlurking Wrote: I have no read the whole thread, but I am going to make a simple point, if there were not many parents, then the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve had sex with each other, incest has never been good.

That or God created other people which were not written in the bible.

That idea has been condemned by the Catholic Church - it is called polygenism, or "many first parents."  Like evolution and an old earth, this is against Sacred Scripture and Tradition.  Besides, Adam and Eve were the FIRST human beings ever made, thus they would have been genetically pure.  They lived to be over 900 years old (at least Adam did, because Scripture states it quite clearly), so they would probably have had dozens of children, maybe even nearing one hundred.  Those brothers and sisters, again, would have been genetically pure.

Anyway, without the use of polygenism, Catholics cannot logically promote evolution.  The doctrine of Original Sin and monogenism puts a huge NO stamp on evolution, thus "theistic" evolution cannot be logically promoted within Catholic circles without either 1) using polygenism in their scheme, 2) denying Original Sin, and/or 3) coming up with some off-the-wall fanciful story about how God evolved monkeys into modern man, killed off every human being except one male and one female, then enlightened them with a soul and placed them in the paradise of the Garden of Eden.  That is the only true way to get around the condemnation of polygenism, and it is wacko!  Besides, Scripture states quite clearly that DEATH was the result of the Fall of Adam and Eve, so what is the "theistic" evolutionist to say, that all of the animal kingdom was immortal for millions of years until the Fall of mankind?  What nonsense!

True science proves that mankind is descended from one common set of parents about 6,500 years ago, which is EXACTLY in line with the Biblical account.


Re: Evolution - Christus Imperat - 01-01-2011

(01-01-2011, 06:07 PM)Nic Wrote:
(01-01-2011, 05:35 PM)justlurking Wrote: I have no read the whole thread, but I am going to make a simple point, if there were not many parents, then the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve had sex with each other, incest has never been good.

That or God created other people which were not written in the bible.

That idea has been condemned by the Catholic Church - it is called polygenism, or "many first parents."  Like evolution and an old earth, this is against Sacred Scripture and Tradition.  Besides, Adam and Eve were the FIRST human beings ever made, thus they would have been genetically pure.  They lived to be over 900 years old (at least Adam did, because Scripture states it quite clearly), so they would probably have had dozens of children, maybe even nearing one hundred.  Those brothers and sisters, again, would have been genetically pure.

Anyway, without the use of polygenism, Catholics cannot logically promote evolution.  The doctrine of Original Sin and monogenism puts a huge NO stamp on evolution, thus "theistic" evolution cannot be logically promoted within Catholic circles without either 1) using polygenism in their scheme, 2) denying Original Sin, and/or 3) coming up with some off-the-wall fanciful story about how God evolved monkeys into modern man, killed off every human being except one male and one female, then enlightened them with a soul and placed them in the paradise of the Garden of Eden.  That is the only true way to get around the condemnation of polygenism, and it is wacko!  Besides, Scripture states quite clearly that DEATH was the result of the Fall of Adam and Eve, so what is the "theistic" evolutionist to say, that all of the animal kingdom was immortal for millions of years until the Fall of mankind?  What nonsense!

True science proves that mankind is descended from one common set of parents about 6,500 years ago, which is EXACTLY in line with the Biblical account.

What do you mean by genetically pure?  I don't know much about genetics.


Re: Evolution - Resurrexi - 01-02-2011

I definitely believe in the historical truth of the account of creation found in Genesis, but I also accept the theory of evolution inasmuch as it is compatible with Catholic dogma.

To explain my view further, I think that:
1) God created all things out of nothing.
2) Man's body originated by descent from non-human hominids that, in turn were descended from the same common ancestor as all other corporeal life on earth.
3) Man's spiritual soul, with its properties of intellect and will, was directly created by God; man's intellect and free will did not evolve.
4) All humans who ever have lived or ever will live are descended from the first human couple.
5) God bestowed sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts (e.g. immortality) upon this first human couple.
6) These first two humans sinned grievously against God; this sin is transmitted to us their descendants by means of descent.
7) The first chapters of Genesis have a truly historical character, but are narrated in figurative manner much different from that used by historians in the modern Western tradition.

As far as I am aware, my views on the matter are compatible both with Catholic dogma and with what reason and scientific evidence show to be true.