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Re: Do trad kids rebel? - wallflower - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 07:55 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(11-03-2010, 07:42 PM)wallflower Wrote:
(11-03-2010, 06:36 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(11-03-2010, 05:51 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: .
And here's the real kicker...if it is harder to have holiness downtown than it is in Bonneville....how much greater the reward for being a good Catholic downtown...seriously.

Does that mean if it is harder to be holy in a bar than in my kitchen, I should go to a bar?  I'm pretty sure that is not how it works.

Wow, I missed that line somehow. That's....messed up.

Scipio are you holier than ruralpeace because you're Catholic "downtown" rather than in "Bonnieville"? Because it's so much harder...and your reward will be so much greater...


You're both missing the point. It's obvious he's being rhetorical. He's not saying that people downtown are holier than  people in the country; he's saying people in the country shouldn't think they're holier for avoiding the challenges that go with living in the city.  ::)

I'm not convinced it was rhetorical, nor did I miss any point. I knew what he meant all through his speech I simply disagreed with his last line and his tone. Whether Scipio was speaking tongue in cheek or not, I saw no indication from ruralpeace that he thinks he is holier than anyone else for living in the country, therefore I saw no need for Scipio to put him in his place with any kind of rhetoric. There ARE benefits to the life ruralpeace had adopted, benefits that are known beyond the trad community, why is he not able to share them without being dismissed as holier-than-thou? 
   


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Scipio_a - 11-03-2010

you missed the point...they got it.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - ruralpeace - 11-04-2010

"Actually, demand proves a product's use in some way...even the sea monkeys you used to by out of the back of your comic books or the little hermit crabs...they provide enjoyment or a small entertainment of sorts."

You fell for this advert, as well?!  We have something in common! ;) I guess you are right - I had a need for fish food (they were brine shrimp, correct?)

Or the goofy picture of a sailing ship I bought when I was 9....had to laminate it and put nails in a board and then wrap sowing thread around the nails...kind of like rigging...yep...useless in your all knowing all seeing book (is this an insult towards me, personally, because we have different views, or is there a book - am I missing something?)...but it entertained me for a decent while and I though it was cool for a number of years...so it was worth whatever mom and dad put out for it for me...you know ... Agreed. This picture had a use. The Billabong t-shirt, not convinced.


Who said any thing about manual labor and life difficulty?  The culture sells convenience over labour. More time for "leisure". Not really leisure. The mall included.


Strangely one of the things that people who decide to try to do everything themselves use as a selling point for that lifestyle is the supposed hardship that it entails as a sort of cleansing...can't have it both ways.  Not really. Some simply prefer to produce, for example, their own food, rather than the lab-created "food" in Safeway these days. Nay creative-types prefer to do-it themselves. I think it's a healthier attitude) I don't buy it either way.  Standing in Gap all day trying to sell cloths to various types of people is just as hard as plowing...but in a different way... How? And entails just as much need for Grace to carry the burden. The Gap supports abortion. They are on the boycott list. Many of these stores support things that are anti-Life. And to compare sitting or standing in the Gap listening to Lady Gaga to working the land with one's family... A stretch. I suppose some farmers hit the bottle, though. It can be a hard, lonely life, especially when it lacks faith.


Either way, life is hard enough no matter which path you choose... (Agreed) but don't make the mistake that somehow you are a better Catholic for avoiding malls or making things at home that you could buy if you had a job outside (I never said I was. I said the modern-day mall is not a place for traditional Catholics. My opinion, of course)....because it does not...not even in a little way make you a better Catholic or give you more chances at Graces....(Never said it made anyone a better Catholic. I do believe the land is a safer place for any Catholic than the mall. Particularly for kids, which was my central point) that is something else entirely...it is internal and it is just as hard to get on the farm as it is in the downtown flat.... (I hear what you're saying here. But the land, to me, is a better environment for reflection. Many popes prior to Vatican 2 encouraged rural living for this same reason. Kids today could use a good stay on the land. Not necessarily for the workload. Nor the labour, though both are healthy for the mind and body. I promote the space, and the lack of noise and pop-culture pollution. Fashion has no real purpose when you're planting or pulling carrots with your wife and kids![/b]

And here's the real kicker...if it is harder to have holiness downtown than it is in Bonneville....how much greater the reward for being a good Catholic downtown...seriously. The reward's the same. Regardless..

My parents were urban stock. My roots are urban. Many holy people in places like Brooklyn, Chicago, Dublin, Warsaw, Bogota, ... and so on. 

Spiritually, modern-day suburbia is a far more difficult place to be, than most urban centres...

And I take no offence to anything you have written in response to my posts. Even when it seems you are calling me a kook! 

We pray for God's Grace. For the same reward.

+JMJ+



Re: Do trad kids rebel? - voxxpopulisuxx - 11-04-2010

The desert fathers abandoned all for christ


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Historian - 11-04-2010

It was interesting reading all the replies.

As the parent of two young adult children, I certainly agree that "trad kids" rebel ... in fact I think all children rebel to some degree, trad or otherwise. I think rebellion is often an unconscious means of establishing one's independence from one's parents. Rebellion doesn't have to be bad or immoral, i e. indulging in premarital sex or using drugs; it can sometimes just be not doing something that is expected, such as attending college, or getting a tattoo despite knowing that the parents disapprove of them, or pushing the dress code to the extreme limit that the parents approve of.

I also don't think that the home environment, whether strict or relatively lax, has a lot to do with any particular child's rebellion. Some children seem to be born with naturally compliant, law-abiding personalities, while others seem predestined to test all the boundaries. Any couple with more than one child will probably have at least one "rebel".  Luckily, the rebels seem to have other qualities that make them extra-lovable, to keep you from writing them off completely. (Can you tell I have a rebel child?  :laughing:)

To address some of what ruralpeace wrote: I can certainly agree that it is important to avoid consumerism and the "mall rat" mentality (okay, yes, I understand that some of you utilize malls for bookclub meetings, however in my area of Kentucky that just isn't happening, lol). But I guess I don't really see the supposed benefit of shopping at Goodwill versus shopping at Sears. Yes, shopping at my local Sears means I'm shopping at a mall, but if I'm looking for a winter coat I can walk into Sears, find a good coat, purchase it, and then leave. Shopping at my local Goodwill store means many hours of trolling the store in the hope of finding a coat that might work. In fact, I believe that shopping at Thrift Stores often promotes a type of conspicuous consumerism because of the "it's so cheap" mentality. Yes, you may have been able to purchase ten shirts for what I paid for one, but that still doesn't change the fact that you purchased nine shirts too many! (Surely I'm not the only one with "thrift store junkie" friends?)


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - mamalove - 11-04-2010



        "Yes, shopping at my local Sears means I'm shopping at a mall, but if I'm looking for a winter coat I can walk into Sears, find a good coat, purchase it, and then leave. Shopping at my local Goodwill store means many hours of trolling the store in the hope of finding a coat that might work. In fact, I believe that shopping at Thrift Stores often promotes a type of conspicuous consumerism because of the "it's so cheap" mentality. Yes, you may have been able to purchase ten shirts for what I paid for one, but that still doesn't change the fact that you purchased nine shirts too many! "

      :laughing:that used to be SOOOO me!  Gee, the girls already have a closet full of beautiful dresses and skirts, but this one is soooo cheap, and its here, and I may never see another one, and they just DON'T sell THESE at the mall...............good grief!  thrift stores can be so addicting.  It has taken a year of prayer that God would help me to live the spirit of poverty to cure me (almost) of this gluttony.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - ruralpeace - 11-05-2010

@FascinatingWofe (Great name!)

The wife and kids love the buzz of the search. It's like treasure hunting. If you find a gem, the excitement's huge!

I also find the quality better than Sears, especially if you can find the vintage stuff. Some of the vintage stuff is more costume than clothing. Its a freak show, all about the person getting noticed.  But some of the more modest clothes... Well made. Not to mention cheaper. Coats and suit jackets, in particular. Most of my suit jackets are from the 50s and 60s. All tagged around CDN$5. All modest. Well made. People always ask where I got this or that jacket. In a complimentary way...

What I find interesting is the reaction when I tell them, "5 bucks. Value Village."  Many people simply can't do that. Won't.

We can buy a year's worth of clothes for four growing kids in one or two stops. For around CDN$150. For us, far cheaper than Sears.

As for rebellious children. I was the rebel in our family. The Catholic culture in our family was strong. What through me off the rails was a combination of family tragedy and the English street punk of the late 70s/early 80s. What kept me from a tombstone was that strict Catholic foundation. It never crumbled completely. I always held a fond sentimentality for it. I never abandoned my family, emotionally, like so many kids did back then, and do know - to me, detaching emotionally from the family is part of the culture. Taught as part of the culture. Encouraged.

I always knew my parents were right. Even during my darkest days. Many Masses and Rosaries were offered up for me. God spared me.

But I know rebellion. Trust me. But I never really rebelled from my Catholic identity. I rebelled from the culture of suburbia. To me, it was one-dimensional, and lacked depth.

Family traditions were huge in my family. Family Rosary, thrift stores and estate sales, nature... trips to the city... all done with a a massive emphasis on family.  My dad loved sports. We spent many days at the ballpark. Shea Stadium. Loved it. My Dad made life fun. Dad's are the anchor's of the family. Dad needs to be involved. My dad was. So was my mom. None of my brothers, nor my sister, rebelled. I was the youngest. I think that also was a factor. 

And trust me - our shopping at thrift stores makes sense. It's cheaper. It's about necessity, not quantity. To sum up our family life - we are pursuing detachment. Gospel Poverty. Making it a family affair, built on the writings of the Saints... Tomas a Kempis... and so forth.  So wanting ten shirts doesn't fit the spiritual path we are trying to follow, as a family. But I did struggle with that when I was younger. When I was single.

So far, Gospel Poverty seems to be working for my family. Pray for us.

+JMJ+


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - voxxpopulisuxx - 11-05-2010

The only intolerable rebellion is blatent rejection of the faith.
Do trad kids rebel?
Define kids... Is a 18-19 yr old a kid?
Define rebellion....


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Historian - 11-05-2010

(11-03-2010, 01:50 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(11-03-2010, 01:42 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(11-03-2010, 01:32 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: Oh, I forgot, the ads at Abercrombie are over the top

I agree. If I didn't already hate the overpriced junky clothes, loud music, snotty employees, and overpowering smell, I would certainly avoid A&F for the porn on the walls. I reached this decision without feeling the need to stay out of malls completely. It's easy to recognise certain companies for their marketing strategies and make a conscious decision not to fall for them, all without invoking Catholicism. I tend to avoid a lot of places that are too loud or overly advertised because it's just irritating and insulting. But, if I want candles, to the mall I will go.  ;D

I don't understand why you wanted to separate your criticisms of malls from your Catholicism.  Consumerism is opposed to Catholic values.  Malls promote covetousness, lust and gluttony.  To go to a mall is to immerse oneself in a sinful environment just as much as going to a gay bar. 

comparing even the most materialistic mall with that of a gay bar is more than a bit off....the advertisements at your typical mall may be quite impure and definite occasions of sin, but to a much lesser degree than a gay bar where the sexuality is much more pronounced and overt.

I don't see what is wrong with going to the mall to shop at the supermarket or just to get some stuff without lingering for long. Its not as if all of us have a nice collection of outdoor markets or homely and family-friendly small stores to shop at everytime.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - JayneK - 11-05-2010

(11-05-2010, 08:37 AM)karyn_anne Wrote: comparing even the most materialistic mall with that of a gay bar is more than a bit off....the advertisements at your typical mall may be quite impure and definite occasions of sin, but to a much lesser degree than a gay bar where the sexuality is much more pronounced and overt.

I don't see what is wrong with going to the mall to shop at the supermarket or just to get some stuff without lingering for long. Its not as if all of us have a nice collection of outdoor markets or homely and family-friendly small stores to shop at everytime.

I can see that the advertising and displays at the mall are very impure but I've never been to a gay bar so I can't really compare them.  I just expect them to have a similar effect of desensitization on anyone who spends a lot of time in them.

I don't think that shopping at a mall is wrong, especially if that is the only place to shop.  I  just don't see it as a spiritually healthy place to hang out.