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Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Vetus Ordo - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 02:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: Shopping is not a sin in itself and neither is buying a drink at a bar.  When teens go to hang out at malls, they aren't just there to shop.  They are there to hook up with each other and be part of a lifestyle that is opposed to Catholic values in many ways.

I think it depends on the teens, their education and their culture.

I remember being young and when we went to malls, it was to eat, have a coffee or go to the movies. Most of the time, though, when we wanted to hang out, properly speaking, we went to the hundreds of caffés downtown, which is very much (still) an European thing.

(11-03-2010, 02:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: If one is shopping at a mall because one needs to purchase an item that is sold there, that is one thing.  Hanging out at the mall as a social activity (which apparently is common among young people) is highly problematic.

Again, it depends. Some people, even adults, go to malls to spend a portion of their free time just looking around, shopping, eating, etc. Even today, with all the moral degradation of western society, most shopping centres I know of can hardly be described as inherently sinful.

Going back to what you said, I think the difference is that a gay bar promotes homosexuality, the same way a brothrel promotes prostitution. Sin is their raison d'être. A mall just sells things, like a bazaar or a fair, things that can be sinful or not. You can avoid sin if you go to the mall but you can hardly avoid sin if you go to a gay bar or to a brothrel.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Scipio_a - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 02:20 PM)ruralpeace Wrote: Demand for a product or service does not make it useful. Nor does manual labour make one's life "difficult".


Actually, demand proves a product's use in some way...even the sea monkeys you used to by out of the back of your comic books or the little hermit crabs...they provide enjoyment or a small entertainment of sorts.

Or the goofy picture of a sailing ship I bought when I was 9....had to laminate it and put nails in a board and then wrap sowing thread around the nails...kind of like rigging...yep...useless in your all knowing all seeing book...but it entertained me for a decent while and I though it was cool for a number of years...so it was worth whatever mom and dad put out for it for me...you know ...


Who said any thing about manual labor and life difficulty?   


Strangely one of the things that people who decide to try to do everything themselves use as a selling point for that lifestyle is the supposed hardship that it entails as a sort of cleansing...can't have it both ways.  I don't buy it either way.  Standing in Gap all day trying to sell cloths to various types of people is just as hard as plowing...but in a different way...and entails just as much need for Grace to carry the burden.


Either way, life is hard enough no matter which path you choose...but don't make the mistake that somehow you are a better Catholic for avoiding malls or making things at home that you could buy if you had a job outside....because it does not...not even in a little way make you a better Catholic or give you more chances at Graces....that is something else entirely...it is internal and it is just as hard to get on the farm as it is in the downtown flat....

And here's the real kicker...if it is harder to have holiness downtown than it is in Bonneville....how much greater the reward for being a good Catholic downtown...seriously.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - orate - 11-03-2010

Just returned from out of town and just found this thread.

When I first saw the title, I thought,"Is this a trick question?"

Trad Cath kids have the fallen nature just as all other people do.  Do they rebel?  Yep!

I think the devil goes after them more even than others, as he does not need to tempt those who are already steeped in sin.

As an "older" parent, I can honestly say to you younger ones---don't think that just because you raised your child as a Traditional Catholic, even if you homeschool, get rid of the tv, and do everything right by Trad Cath standards, that your child is not capable of the most vile of sins.  Just as his parents are.  ;)

Pray, Hope, and consecrate them to the Blessed Mother.  Raise them as best you can.  And even if they fall they will know where to return.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - JayneK - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 05:51 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: .
And here's the real kicker...if it is harder to have holiness downtown than it is in Bonneville....how much greater the reward for being a good Catholic downtown...seriously.

Does that mean if it is harder to be holy in a bar than in my kitchen, I should go to a bar?  I'm pretty sure that is not how it works.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Satori - 11-03-2010

As someone who used to be immersed in gay culture, I feel confident in saying that if you hung out in gay bars for any length of time, eventually you'd think it was all good. Familiarity and all that.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - OCLittleFlower - 11-03-2010

As a teenager who used to hang out with her friends at the mall and never once "hooked up" with someone and barely even knew what that was as a teen, I take issue with some of the opinions expressed about them.  My friends and I would go to the mall either to buy things, hang out in the coffee shops, or window shop.  We really liked window shopping in the Japantown mall in San Francisco and also buying things there.  I can't ever recall doing anything immoral at a mall.

Today, I have met with writing critique groups at malls (they tend to have coffee shops with open tables that don't care if you sit there a while and rearrange the tables for a giant group...many don't care if we are there for hours as long as we buy stuff).

Really, a mall is just a large collection of businesses, which should be judged on their individual merits. 


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - Iolanthe - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 05:51 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: Either way, life is hard enough no matter which path you choose...but don't make the mistake that somehow you are a better Catholic for avoiding malls or making things at home that you could buy if you had a job outside....because it does not...not even in a little way make you a better Catholic or give you more chances at Graces....that is something else entirely...it is internal and it is just as hard to get on the farm as it is in the downtown flat....

And here's the real kicker...if it is harder to have holiness downtown than it is in Bonneville....how much greater the reward for being a good Catholic downtown...seriously.

Exactly!

(11-03-2010, 07:05 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: As a teenager who used to hang out with her friends at the mall and never once "hooked up" with someone and barely even knew what that was as a teen, I take issue with some of the opinions expressed about them.  My friends and I would go to the mall either to buy things, hang out in the coffee shops, or window shop.  We really liked window shopping in the Japantown mall in San Francisco and also buying things there.  I can't ever recall doing anything immoral at a mall.

Same here.


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - JayneK - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 07:05 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: As a teenager who used to hang out with her friends at the mall and never once "hooked up" with someone and barely even knew what that was as a teen, I take issue with some of the opinions expressed about them.  My friends and I would go to the mall either to buy things, hang out in the coffee shops, or window shop.  We really liked window shopping in the Japantown mall in San Francisco and also buying things there.  I can't ever recall doing anything immoral at a mall.

Today, I have met with writing critique groups at malls (they tend to have coffee shops with open tables that don't care if you sit there a while and rearrange the tables for a giant group...many don't care if we are there for hours as long as we buy stuff).

Really, a mall is just a large collection of businesses, which should be judged on their individual merits. 

Well you seemed to turn out really well in spite of hanging out at malls, but you might have been even better if you hadn't.   :)


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - wallflower - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 06:36 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(11-03-2010, 05:51 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: .
And here's the real kicker...if it is harder to have holiness downtown than it is in Bonneville....how much greater the reward for being a good Catholic downtown...seriously.

Does that mean if it is harder to be holy in a bar than in my kitchen, I should go to a bar?  I'm pretty sure that is not how it works.

Wow, I missed that line somehow. That's....messed up.

Scipio are you holier than ruralpeace because you're Catholic "downtown" rather than in "Bonnieville"? Because it's so much harder...and your reward will be so much greater...

I think you were doing ok until you came out with that foot in mouth. It contradicted everything you were trying to say about "either way, grace is grace etc..." because after stressing how it's all the same no matter where we are, you turned around and insinuated that a "downtown" Catholic is better than a "Bonnieville" Catholic. So do you really believe it's all the same or do you just want ruralpeace to be put in his place for believing something different from you?

Your basic premise is good, but there is such a thing as tempting God and we are responsible to remove ourselves and our children from those situations, whenever possible (being the operative phrase), not stay there because it's so much harder to be Catholic there, so we'll be rewarded that much better. If ruralpeace and others feel that malls are not a spiritual boon and not necessary in their lives, so be it. I don't understand why you have to skip straight to trying to portray him as a holier-than-thou for it. As far as manual labor goes, there's plenty of Catholic and secular science behind how good it is for the soul or "mental health", which cannot be said of many office/sales type jobs. He's not crazy for wishing his family to have a part of that. And if he can encourage others to do so *if* they can, good for him.   


Re: Do trad kids rebel? - wallflower - 11-03-2010

(11-03-2010, 06:06 PM)orate Wrote: Just returned from out of town and just found this thread.

When I first saw the title, I thought,"Is this a trick question?"

Trad Cath kids have the fallen nature just as all other people do.  Do they rebel?  Yep!

I think the devil goes after them more even than others, as he does not need to tempt those who are already steeped in sin.

As an "older" parent, I can honestly say to you younger ones---don't think that just because you raised your child as a Traditional Catholic, even if you homeschool, get rid of the tv, and do everything right by Trad Cath standards, that your child is not capable of the most vile of sins.  Just as his parents are.  ;)

Pray, Hope, and consecrate them to the Blessed Mother.  Raise them as best you can.  And even if they fall they will know where to return.

Lovely synopsis, thank you!  :)