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Restore the minor orders! - Printable Version

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Re: Restore the minor orders! - The_Harlequin_King - 12-29-2010

(12-29-2010, 11:53 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: HK, where do I sign up?

Well.... aside from campaigning for me as Pope, the next best course of action would be if all trads brought the subject up before traditional priests, bishops and seminary recruiters.


Re: Restore the minor orders! - piabee - 12-29-2010

I thought the vow of celibacy was taken before being ordained to the subdiaconate or diaconate.


Re: Restore the minor orders! - The_Harlequin_King - 12-29-2010

(12-29-2010, 05:02 PM)piabee Wrote: I thought the vow of celibacy was taken before being ordained to the subdiaconate or diaconate.

Currently in the traditional seminaries, the solemn vow of celibacy is taken when being ordained to the subdiaconate. Once you're a subdeacon, you're part of the "major orders". In the old days, that also included a benefice, which was like a fief, I guess. Lower seminarians may be pledged to temporary vows of celibacy; I'm not sure. There's no sin if they drop out, though.


Re: Restore the minor orders! - WhollyRoaminCatholic - 12-29-2010

(12-29-2010, 05:05 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: In the old days, that also included a benefice, which was like a fief, I guess.

How old of days are we talking about here?


Re: Restore the minor orders! - The_Harlequin_King - 12-29-2010

(12-29-2010, 05:12 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(12-29-2010, 05:05 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: In the old days, that also included a benefice, which was like a fief, I guess.

How old of days are we talking about here?

Pre-French Revolution, for the fiefdom stuff. I suppose "benefice" afterward can refer to monetary stipends. To be honest, I haven't deciphered the whole subject yet. I'm sure Quis or someone else on the forum knows way more than I do about them.


Re: Restore the minor orders! - Historian - 12-29-2010

I wish they would!

I don't get why the Latin Church dumped them, while the Greek Catholics kept them, obviously they are all super ancient espiecially the subdeaconate so made no sense why Paul VI wrote them off

speaking of which can somebody, if they know offhand, name that document for me so I can read it? 




Re: Restore the minor orders! - The_Harlequin_King - 12-29-2010

(12-29-2010, 05:32 PM)Scythian Wrote: I don't get why the Latin Church dumped them, while the Greek Catholics kept them, obviously they are all super ancient espiecially the subdeaconate so made no sense why Paul VI wrote them off

One reason is because Eastern Catholics don't require celibacy. A sad development of the Latin Rite isn't celibacy, but the idea that "if you're going to be celibate, you might as well be a priest". The assumption that celibacy = priesthood is quite present even on this forum. So by the Late Middle Ages, minor orders and the rest were merely stepping stones to priesthood. And then, religious orders which were founded specifically to be for laymen (non-priestly brothers) became dominated by priests. So today there's a view, which is quite disordered in my opinion, that priests are like every Catholic's first-line supervisor, or that every Catholic should have a personal priest. In truth, minor orders and deacons are like our sergeants, deacons are lieutenants, and priests are captains.

Quote:speaking of which can somebody, if they know offhand, name that document for me so I can read it? 

That's Ministeria Quaedam: On Tonsure, Minor Orders and the Subdiaconate. Here's the link: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p6minors.htm

Basically, it confines the definition of "clergy" to the three orders established by Christ: deacon, priest, bishop. The minor orders are converted into two "installed ministries": lector and acolyte (the latter of which may also be called subdeacon). They are male-only, but not clerical. In practice, only about 2% of all dioceses actually implement the installed ministries to the laity at large. This is because, among other reasons, you need to be installed by a bishop and it restricts the role to men. But who wants to do that when you can just have ad hoc volunteers serve or read? So for now, only Novus Ordo seminarians use either ministry for the most part. Thus, the good intent of the document was never realized.

In a way, though, that's actually an extension of the pre-Vatican II mindset of just having volunteer altar servers rather than ordained acolytes. But it's exacerbated to extremes by post-conciliar madness.


Re: Restore the minor orders! - MichaelNZ - 12-30-2010

Quote: A sad development of the Latin Rite isn't celibacy, but the idea that "if you're going to be celibate, you might as well be a priest". The assumption that celibacy = priesthood is quite present even on this forum.

I'm assuming that's why there's been a drop in the numbers of monks as well.


Re: Restore the minor orders! - The_Harlequin_King - 12-30-2010

(12-30-2010, 11:10 PM)MichaelNZ Wrote: I'm assuming that's why there's been a drop in the numbers of monks as well.

Absolutely. In the original Rule of Saint Benedict, it was assumed that priests would be imported solely for singing the liturgy, but all the brothers including the abbot would be laymen. There were several attempts to get back to this model, but inevitably they would start having priests ordained from their own ranks.

The truth, of course, is that some men are called to serve the Church as clerics, but not with priestly roles like the care of souls. By the Renaissance, though, the "priests only" model led to a lot of priests who were mere administrators, secretaries or without any official role at all. Sort of like Father Z today with his bird-watching (no offense to him).


Re: Restore the minor orders! - moneil - 12-30-2010

(12-29-2010, 04:21 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Since my liturgical posts of late tend to go back to this topic, allow me to proclaim it for all the world to see:

Restore the minor orders to the parishes!

The best way to get rid of altar girls is to get rid of the practice of using laymen at all in the sanctuary. Ordain faithful Catholic men as porters, lectors, exorcists and acolytes. Also, have choir stalls built in every sanctuary and ordain the choristers, too. Let's have true ecclesiastical choirs as Pius X said in Tra le sollecitudini.

Then, ordain the leaders of these men to the subdiaconate and diaconate so we may have solemn Masses every Sunday. Let there not be merely "priest" and "everyone else", but a definite hierarchy of the clergy as there was meant to be. I believe this would solve a lot of the confusion out there: the kind neo-Caths have about the clergy and laity in general, and the kind trads have about priests vs. lower clergy.

Well said, and thank you for saying it  :thumb:
There, I said it.