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There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Printable Version

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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Historian - 02-23-2011

(02-23-2011, 08:13 PM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 07:52 PM)James02 Wrote: Another red herring.  Everybody on this forum takes the scandal in the Church extremely seriously.  That is why we are trads.

By the way, if you are not Catholic, just say so.  Why be deceptive?

James, of course I am Catholic - just not Catholic enough for some, apparently. 

I've been around a lot of Protestants in my day, and I have no reason to doubt you're Catholic since I take people at their word generally, but I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you're an ex-Protestant based on how you form arguments, what you put into them, and how you analyze texts.

If I had to guess a sect I'd guess Baptist or Evangelical.  You're too sane to be a Pentecostal or Charismatic, and most modern Lutherans wouldn't know the Bible if it hit them in the face.  Anglican / Episcopalian, maybe, but they usually aren't hung up on exegesis as much as you seem to be.

Am I right?


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Vetus Ordo - 02-23-2011

(02-23-2011, 11:30 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: If I had to guess a sect I'd guess Baptist or Evangelical.  You're too sane to be a Pentecostal or Charismatic, and most modern Lutherans wouldn't know the Bible if it hit them in the face.  Anglican / Episcopalian, maybe, but they usually aren't hung up on exegesis as much as you seem to be.

Am I right?

You forgot Calvinist. There are some traditionally-minded ones, knowledgeable of Scripture.


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Historian - 02-23-2011

(02-23-2011, 11:52 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 11:30 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: If I had to guess a sect I'd guess Baptist or Evangelical.  You're too sane to be a Pentecostal or Charismatic, and most modern Lutherans wouldn't know the Bible if it hit them in the face.  Anglican / Episcopalian, maybe, but they usually aren't hung up on exegesis as much as you seem to be.

Am I right?

You forgot Calvinist. There are some traditionally-minded ones, knowledgeable of Scripture.

True.  The Calvinists do have their moments of clarity and right-thinking.


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Catholic Johnny - 02-24-2011

I have presented that as a component of the current crisis (openly and practicing homosexual priests still in ministry) but you have barely acknowledge it, Quis.

As far as the CCC, which I think is a fine document save its over reliance on Vatican II (more than half of all citiations are from the 16 documents).  The problem that you and I disagree on is that it states that homosexual persons are called to chastity, which can only mean 'hetero-sexual' (sorry to use that word) chastity by the CCC's own definitions.  This is not clear, and in fact one must knit together the various statemements and propositions in order to find out even that.   You say, "hopefully the disorder will be conquered" but where is the necessity for this presented?   I'm not being dishonest or pretzeling words and phrases.

The issue of openly sodomitic (or even closeted) priests is handled in tradition (per the 'spamming' I seem culpable of) far differently than the way it is today.  Q:  what happened in "our day"? that is different?  Again, you dismissed the deliberate mentions of "Today" and "Since the Second Vatican Council" in the official documents quoted which are if anything a tacit admittance that this widespread problem is of recent advent.  Or do you deny this?  And if it has arisen in these epic and cataclysmic proportions since the time of Vatican II, what changed?  

One thing that changed was a cease-fire in the war against Modernism when Pope Paul VI abrogated the Oath against it.  In Vatican II with its emphasis on man, the dignity of man, the rights of man, the unity of mankind, ad nauseum, the doors were flung wide open for humanistic interpretations of the Deposit of Faith.  Gaudium et Spes says explicitly,

May the faithful, therefore, live in very close union with the other men of their time and may they strive to understand perfectly their way of thinking and judging, as expressed in their culture. Let them blend new sciences and theories and the understanding of the most recent discoveries with Christian morality and the teaching of Christian doctrine, so that their religious culture and morality may keep pace with scientific knowledge and with the constantly progressing technology. Thus they will be able to interpret and evaluate all things in a truly Christian spirit.

Let those who teach theology in seminaries and universities strive to collaborate with men versed in the other sciences through a sharing of their resources and points of view
.  GeS, 62

while Pope St. Pius X in Pascendi teaches

Clerics and priests inscribed in a Catholic Institute or University must not in the future follow in civil Universities those courses for which there are chairs in the Catholic Institutes to which they belong. If this has been permitted anywhere in the past, We ordain that it be not allowed for the future.  Pascendi, 49

Since the Council, the 'science' of Freud is 'blended' with Christian morality and we come up with 'homosexual persons.'  Or do you, as a traditionalist deny that the Council was infected with the Nouvelle Theologie?

Why is Pope St. Pius V's treatment of this issue so vastly different from the current Catholic leadership's?  What changed?  You, who impugn my motives, be honest - what changed?  Has "modern man" changed, as Pope John XXIII averred in his opening address to the ecumenical council?  Have the conditions of modernity so changed that the Church's definitions of human nature must also be explained according to rationalist constructs?  

What happened between Vatican II and Pope Benedict's promulgation on Instructions...homosexuals...priesthood?  Why does the Supreme Pontiff put on the brakes after so much damage was done in the interim - and why did not Paul VI and John Paul II do the same?  What happened, Quis?  How did we get here?  Truth be told, the 1992 CCC is probably just formalizing what was accepted during this period - that "chaste" sodomitical men were acceptable for the priesthood, clean contrary to tradition and previous Papal instruction (some of which I have quoted).

If you are honest, you will admit that it is the "blending" alluded to in the imprecise, ambiguous langauge of GeS that has brought us here.  And that is my whole contention - we did arrive at this crisis where there is a large % of the RCC's priesthood who are reprobate concerning the Faith by accepting worldy standards above sacred standards.  This is spiritual adultery as described by St. James:

Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.   Jas. 4:4

I will stand down, then Quis.  This is your forum, I will honor your standards.  But I will not accept that reprobates persisting in mortal sin are Christians.  And in whatever sense they are priests, they are culpable of mortal sin by submitting themselves to orders in that state, and as the Angelic Doctor explained, they sin mortally every time they take to administer the functions of their office as such.  

The peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
cj



Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Catholic Johnny - 02-24-2011

(02-23-2011, 11:30 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 08:13 PM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 07:52 PM)James02 Wrote: Another red herring.  Everybody on this forum takes the scandal in the Church extremely seriously.  That is why we are trads.

By the way, if you are not Catholic, just say so.  Why be deceptive?

James, of course I am Catholic - just not Catholic enough for some, apparently. 

I've been around a lot of Protestants in my day, and I have no reason to doubt you're Catholic since I take people at their word generally, but I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you're an ex-Protestant based on how you form arguments, what you put into them, and how you analyze texts.

If I had to guess a sect I'd guess Baptist or Evangelical.  You're too sane to be a Pentecostal or Charismatic, and most modern Lutherans wouldn't know the Bible if it hit them in the face.  Anglican / Episcopalian, maybe, but they usually aren't hung up on exegesis as much as you seem to be.

Am I right?

That isn't very charitable.  Tell you what, Quis.  You disclose your biography and I will match you step for step. 


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - voxxpopulisuxx - 02-24-2011

Both of you men are honest and without deliberate malice. I think simple frustration has set in. This has been one of the most informative threads in a long time and I think your both starting to overreact a little. Imho


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Historian - 02-24-2011

(02-24-2011, 12:07 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 11:30 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 08:13 PM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-23-2011, 07:52 PM)James02 Wrote: Another red herring.  Everybody on this forum takes the scandal in the Church extremely seriously.  That is why we are trads.

By the way, if you are not Catholic, just say so.  Why be deceptive?

James, of course I am Catholic - just not Catholic enough for some, apparently. 

I've been around a lot of Protestants in my day, and I have no reason to doubt you're Catholic since I take people at their word generally, but I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you're an ex-Protestant based on how you form arguments, what you put into them, and how you analyze texts.

If I had to guess a sect I'd guess Baptist or Evangelical.  You're too sane to be a Pentecostal or Charismatic, and most modern Lutherans wouldn't know the Bible if it hit them in the face.  Anglican / Episcopalian, maybe, but they usually aren't hung up on exegesis as much as you seem to be.

Am I right?

That isn't very charitable.  Tell you what, Quis.  You disclose your biography and I will match you step for step. 

You ask Melkite if he's a homosexual, say I'm infected by modernism,  and you're upset because I ask you if you were once a Protestant?

Ell - Oh - Ell

OK, here's my relevant biography:  I was baptized Catholic in Chicago according to the old form.  Made my first Communion at age 7 and Confirmation at age 14 Queen of All Saints Basilica, Archdiocese of Chicago.  Confirmed by Cdl. Joseph Bernardin according to the new form.  Attended Catholic grade school from K through a Master's Degree except for a few years in college when I went to an Engineering School.  Educated by Benedictine nuns and Jesuit priests.  Became "trad" in the late 90's.

Your turn.  Who were you educated by, who were you baptized and confirmed by, who was responsible for your Catechesis and theological knowledge, where and at what age.

Go.

ETA: if you don't want to answer, fine.  I won't ask again.  However, if you are an ex-Protestant I suggest that while you do embrace Dogma, etc., and confess the faith, the way you look at things and perform exegesis is not the way to go and what made me suspect, rightly or wrongly, that you are an ex-Protestant.  What you should do is read the Fathers and hold to their interpretation first and assume the texts are literal whenever possible.  The same with the CCC, etc.  This is not just my opinion, either, but how the Church says we should read Scripture, and it is my opinion that is how we should look at the CCC and other things, too.  That's the only relevance in my question - how you approach things; to be clear, I'm not questioning your faith.


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Historian - 02-24-2011

(02-24-2011, 12:27 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: Both of you men are honest and without deliberate malice. I think simple frustration has set in. This has been one of the most informative threads in a long time and I think your both starting to overreact a little. Imho

Probably.

ETA:  This is a new twist, voxp.  You trying to calm me down for being offended in a thread instead of the other way around....  :P


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Catholic Johnny - 02-24-2011

A quick bio.

Born 1961 to a lovely young Catholic mother of just 18 years.  Dad was a drinker and a brawler.  They divorced when I was 7.  Atended Catholic schools thanks to my hard working mother's devotion.  Went to public schools from the 6th grade on.  Lost my faith completely in high school as the changes of Vatican II and the NO were just too much change in a supposedly eternal institution.   This was the late 1970s.  Bad time.

Became a rock'n'roll artist at 19 and crashed on LSD at 22.  Returned to Mass at 23 but the NO was hollow.  I had a profound religious experience with our Blessed Redeemer Jesus Christ at 23.  Attended the Church of God in Christ (African-American Pentecostal) for 1 year and joined an Assembly of God Church that specialized in outreach to criminals, gangs, drug addicts, prostitutes, etc... (people like me).  Remained there until I married my wife who was also raised Catholic.  Completed a Bachelor of Theology degree from Logos Christian College and Graduate School, 1995.  3.93 GPA.

Joined the Army in 1993 and became a Lutheran.  Was accepted to study for ordination at 2 Lutheran seminaries.  God called me back to the RCC completely against my will (and my wife's).  There was no honeymoon, no romance, no "aha!  I'm home.  Talk about conversion!  It was very, very hard, especially among the NO and in the Army.  That's how I know its real.  Have 6 hours towards a Master of Arts from Catholic Distance University (4.0). 
I served the Communion Service in the Absence of a Priest over 60 times during combat operations in Operation Iraqi Freedom.  Taught RCIA  in Baghdad, 8 confirmandi brought into the Church.  My Catholic Chaplain during that time was ordained a Bishop yesterday:  http://sites.jcu.edu/news/2011/01/04/pope-benedict-xvi-appoints-jcu-alumnus-neal-buckon-%E2%80%9975-auxiliary-bishop/  Ask Bishop Buckon whether I'm Catholic or not. 

Taught RCIA, Confirmation, and Adult Catechism 2002-present.  Served as EME, Lector, music leader, and CCD teacher.   My lovely wife has been a Parish Coordiantor/Rel. Ed. Coordinator for 4 years.  Served as lay minister to the US Disciplinary Barracks (federal military prison) 2006-2008.  My sons are altar servers.

Started studying the Second Vatican Council in 2008, discovered Apb. Lefevbre in 2009.  My most recent passion:  imbibing and applying Pascendi Dominici Gregis.

BTW, I only said you were influenced by Modernism on this one issue.   ;)


Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - Historian - 02-24-2011

(02-24-2011, 02:56 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote: BTW, I only said you were influenced by Modernism on this one issue.   ;)

Fair enough.  And, I'm glad you're a Catholic. :)