FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Another EENS, please be patient... - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Archives (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Theology and Philosophy (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Another EENS, please be patient... (/showthread.php?tid=44655)



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-28-2011

That is good advice. But it is not an answer. ;D

If God gives his gifts unequally (and he DOES) then how can we say he equally desires all to be saved? I would say that when Christ died his blood that was shed won a superabundant grace capable of saving the whole world! But he wills to only apply this grace to a few. In fact, that is what the Council of Trent says:

Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 3:
"But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. "


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-28-2011

(05-28-2011, 01:53 AM)Gregory I Wrote: That is good advice. But it is not an answer. ;D

If God gives his gifts unequally (and he DOES) then how can we say he equally desires all to be saved? I would say that when Christ died his blood that was shed won a superabundant grace capable of saving the whole world! But he wills to only apply this grace to a few. In fact, that is what the Council of Trent says:

Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 3:
"But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. "

That's what I mean.  The merit of His Passion is communicated to those who with His help want to be with Him.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - GottmitunsAlex - 05-28-2011

I agree with the last post.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 05-28-2011

Except someone who dies in mortal sin.  I'm sure they would prefer to be in heaven.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - GottmitunsAlex - 05-28-2011

Unless he dies a in Martyrdom.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-28-2011

The merit of his passion is communicated to those whom he has elected to salvation. He saves who he wants to for no other reason than his wanting to. He is not obligated to offer salvation to all, since all are justly condemned in Adam for his sin. Our default is hell, not heaven.

Heaven is a gift, and God gives that gift to whoever he wants, and NO ONE can respond to that gift unless God FIRST empowers them to. You CANNOT say yes to God unless God wants you to say yes to him.

A person who dies as a martyr in mortal sin is not saved. No one can be saved, even if they shed their blood for Christ, unless they are in the bosom of unity of the Catholic Church. DE FIDE, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, Pope Eugene IV. Infallible.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - GottmitunsAlex - 05-28-2011


My point exactly.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-28-2011

(05-28-2011, 02:39 AM)Gregory I Wrote: The merit of his passion is communicated to those whom he has elected to salvation. He saves who he wants to for no other reason than his wanting to. He is not obligated to offer salvation to all, since all are justly condemned in Adam for his sin. Our default is hell, not heaven.

Heaven is a gift, and God gives that gift to whoever he wants, and NO ONE can respond to that gift unless God FIRST empowers them to. You CANNOT say yes to God unless God wants you to say yes to him.

A person who dies as a martyr in mortal sin is not saved. No one can be saved, even if they shed their blood for Christ, unless they are in the bosom of unity of the Catholic Church. DE FIDE, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, Pope Eugene IV. Infallible.

Pope Piux IX speaks favorably and hopefully of those who through no fault of their own are not baptized


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 05-28-2011

Forget about baptism.  You can't be saved without Faith in Jesus Christ:

Quote: Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.” – Athanasian Creed

Quote:without which faith no man was ever justified (Council of Trent, Chapter VII)



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-28-2011

No, he says the invincibly ignorant cannot be faulted for unbelief as a SIN. I am sure they can be faulted for a million other sins though. And outside the church there is no remission of sin.

And no, you cannot be saved without faith, but BAPTISM is the immediate instrumental cause of salvation, not faith. Faith is a disposition that is given by GOd which leads to Justification. It Justifies inasmuch as it leads a person to be baptized.