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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 05-29-2011

Is granting salvation to one unbaptized more of a miracle than providing water to God?

No, of course it isn't.

God could provide water JUST AS EASILY as BOD.............the difference is, He made water necessary.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-29-2011

Wulfrano keeps speaking around the issue and not addressing it directly:

The ORDINARY magisterium teaches us that the Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical body of Christ are identical. Ven. Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi says as much. He also says the SOLE WAY one can be made amember of the church is through baptism. THere is no salvation for non-members of the truth. THere is indeed a certain RELATION between those who have elements of the truth, and those who have the WHOLE truth; but that relation is not membership and is not therefore salvific.

Wulfrano, where does the ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM teach that a person can be saved in the honest observance of any religion whatsoever?

Where does it teach that the unregenerate man can will the good or have perfect faith and charity?

Where does it teach that you can be saved without being born again?

Where does it teach that you can be born again in any other way than by baptism?

Consider: If an unbaptized person died, while say running to be baptized, would that person be saved? I do not know. And neither do you. But say for the sake of argument he WAS admitted to heaven. If that person were to come back to life, even after having been admitted into heaven, he could not partake of any of the sacraments! Because he is not a true member of the church. Now, is it not a curious thing that that person who is supposedly in heaven, when he comes back should be denied the sacraments? It does not therefore seem feasible that dying without baptism in ANY circumstance admits one to heaven.

Incidentally, I do not think such a scenario would ever take place. GOd knows what we need, and if we TRULY desire it in sincerity, then he will not keep us from having it. However, there can be some who desire to be baptized out of fear of damnation, and God could allow these to be killed while rushing to the font of baptism, because to be baptized without faith (attrition is not salvific outside the sacrament of penance) is a sacrilege. So to be baptized solely out of fear, and for fire insurance, is a mortal sin! While the true character is conferred, there is no grace conferred, and the individual who dies in that state will go to hell.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - GottmitunsAlex - 05-29-2011

This is how St. Alphonsus Liguori interprets this text.:

    Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. ... But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of spirit' because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, 'de presbytero non baptizato' and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire.

Interesting


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 05-29-2011

Quote: You had a divine revelation we're not aware of?

Yes we do, actually.  Sacred scripture.  In it we are shown how God saves the invincibly ignorant in the case of the eunuch.  We know he was invincibly ignorant because the Bible tells us he even tried to figure out the Truth by reading scripture, but couldn't understand it.  So there was no defect of laziness, etc..., he gave it a good try.

So how did God go about saving this invincibly ignorant man?  He miraculously transported someone to him to teach him in the Faith, and then baptize him.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 05-29-2011

Faith exists before baptism.

Trent Wrote:Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.

Of this disposition it is written:
He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him;[24] and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee;[25] and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin;[26] and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;[27] and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you;[28] finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.[29]

Orange also talks about an "increase" in Faith after baptism:
Orange Wrote:If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles,...




Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-29-2011

What trent says is that no one can be saved without baptism or its desire. They go together. A person cannot be saved without desire, because that desire implies faith which moves one to be baptized, and one cannot be saved without baptism because it is the instrumental cause of justification. We are saved by first being disposed TO justice (but not actually just) in the case of desiring baptism, and we are then ACTUALLY made just when we receive the sacrament.

A disposition toward justice is not justification. Read all of session 6 of the Council of Trent.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 05-29-2011

G.I.,
I agree with what you wrote.  I was merely answering the question of Pheo of whether you can have Faith before baptism.  Yes you can, though there is a massive increase of Faith after baptism.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - PeterII - 05-30-2011

(05-29-2011, 06:51 PM)James02 Wrote: G.I.,
I agree with what you wrote.  I was merely answering the question of Pheo of whether you can have Faith before baptism.  Yes you can, though there is a massive increase of Faith after baptism.

Theologians differ on that.  There is human faith and divine faith.  Aquinas and Bonaventure say divine faith comes at the same time as perfect charity.  Suarez says it comes before charity in the process of justification.  Human faith is not one of the theological virtues.   


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-30-2011

(05-29-2011, 01:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Wulfrano keeps speaking around the issue and not addressing it directly:

The ORDINARY magisterium teaches us that the Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical body of Christ are identical. Ven. Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi says as much. He also says the SOLE WAY one can be made amember of the church is through baptism. THere is no salvation for non-members of the truth. THere is indeed a certain RELATION between those who have elements of the truth, and those who have the WHOLE truth; but that relation is not membership and is not therefore salvific.

Wulfrano, where does the ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM teach that a person can be saved in the honest observance of any religion whatsoever?


Where does it teach that the unregenerate man can will the good or have perfect faith and charity?

Where does it teach that you can be saved without being born again?

Where does it teach that you can be born again in any other way than by baptism?

Consider: If an unbaptized person died, while say running to be baptized, would that person be saved? I do not know. And neither do you. But say for the sake of argument he WAS admitted to heaven. If that person were to come back to life, even after having been admitted into heaven, he could not partake of any of the sacraments! Because he is not a true member of the church. Now, is it not a curious thing that that person who is supposedly in heaven, when he comes back should be denied the sacraments? It does not therefore seem feasible that dying without baptism in ANY circumstance admits one to heaven.

Incidentally, I do not think such a scenario would ever take place. GOd knows what we need, and if we TRULY desire it in sincerity, then he will not keep us from having it. However, there can be some who desire to be baptized out of fear of damnation, and God could allow these to be killed while rushing to the font of baptism, because to be baptized without faith (attrition is not salvific outside the sacrament of penance) is a sacrilege. So to be baptized solely out of fear, and for fire insurance, is a mortal sin! While the true character is conferred, there is no grace conferred, and the individual who dies in that state will go to hell.

Dear Gregory I :  All I know is what Pope Pius IX said in that those in invincible ignorance have a chance for salvation provided they keep natural law in their heart.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-30-2011

THat is possible! But it does not mean that God Short-circuits the sacraments. The working principle here is that God not only wills salvation for all, but he wills it in the WAY HE HAS ESTABLISHED IT. Sure, a sincerely ignorant native could be saved-by a miracle-, like in the case of Philip, being transported in the spirit to preach the gospel to those who would receive it, and to then baptize them.

Miraculous salvation is not what I am arguing against: I am arguing against it occurring in a way that destroys the Authority of Christ and Scripture and the testimonies of the saints and the Extraordinary and Ordinary Magisterium.

THe invincibly ignorant COULD be saved....if GOd furnished for them a priest to deliver them from their ignorance. But will they be saved IN their ignorance, or in their false religion that is offensive to God and that he hates? No. Not at all. Unless the gospel is preached, there is no salvation:

"No man comes to the father, but by me."
"Unless a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."
"WHoever believes and is baptized will be saved."