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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-02-2011

(06-02-2011, 12:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-01-2011, 11:40 PM)wulfrano Wrote: Ultimately, the mercy of God has the last word.

Actually, isn't the Justice of God the last word?

Dear friend Stubborn:  God is so just that He is above all merciful.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-02-2011

(06-02-2011, 02:13 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote:that displays the doctrine of baptism of desire: THat is, the doctrine that those who are invincibly ignorant of our religion can be saved in the sincere and honest obeservance of their own.
That is not the baptism of desire.  Someone who is invincibly ignorant can not desire baptism.  What you describe is Pelagian heresy.

Baptism of desire is when someone who has FAITH in Jesus, wants to join the Church.  But he dies of a heart attack before he can get baptized.  That is the baptism of desire.  And there are good arguments for and against for it.  I personally believe in it.  But I respect the Feeneyite position.

By the way, the private letter labeled a "protocol" from the Holy Office, never published in the AAS, mentions that someone who is invincibly ignorant who is saved without baptism must have Faith and do works of PERFECT Charity.  While this communication is no where near infallible, still it can be said that we have ZERO evidence of this ever happening.  We have never come across someone with miraculous Faith in Jesus.  



You have to do research into cases where the heart stops beating but something inside the corpse still thinks and believes and wants.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-02-2011

Still, I am waiting for something from the teaching authority of the church. Where is BOD taught in a single magisterial document> AN encyclical, an apostolic COnstitution, an ecumenical council, or papal infallibility?

Still waiting...I will get back to the theologian thing. THe heologians must not be manifestly compromised on a particular article of faith, else the whole church would have been Arian in the 4th century.

“But, since it is a matter of that subjection by which in conscience all those Catholics are bound who work in the speculative sciences, in order that they may bring new advantage to the Church by their writings, on that account, then, the men of that same convention should realize that it is not sufficient for learned Catholics to accept and revere the foresaid dogmas of the Church, but that it is also necessary to subject themselves to the decisions pertaining to doctrine which are issued by the Pontifical Congregations, and also to those forms of doctrine which are held by the common and constant consent of Catholics as theological truths and conclusions, so certain that opinions opposed to these same forms of doctrine, although they cannot be called heretical, nevertheless deserve some theological censure.” Tuas Libenter (1863), DZ 1684.

SO I hope everybody here believes in Limbo. I Hope everybody here also acknowledges the teachings of Florence and Trent and Also the Encyclical Called Mystici Corporis Christi. The part where Pope Pius XII says there is no way to be made a member of the church except through baptism.

And the Council of Florence , where it says: "All those who die in mortal sin, or in original sin alone, descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments." Or the Part where it says: "...and this unity of the church is so strong that nobody, even if they shed their blood for the faith, if they die outside the church cannot be saved."


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-02-2011

(06-02-2011, 09:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Still, I am waiting for something from the teaching authority of the church. Where is BOD taught in a single magisterial document> AN encyclical, an apostolic COnstitution, an ecumenical council, or papal infallibility?

Still waiting...I will get back to the theologian thing. THe heologians must not be manifestly compromised on a particular article of faith, else the whole church would have been Arian in the 4th century.

“But, since it is a matter of that subjection by which in conscience all those Catholics are bound who work in the speculative sciences, in order that they may bring new advantage to the Church by their writings, on that account, then, the men of that same convention should realize that it is not sufficient for learned Catholics to accept and revere the foresaid dogmas of the Church, but that it is also necessary to subject themselves to the decisions pertaining to doctrine which are issued by the Pontifical Congregations, and also to those forms of doctrine which are held by the common and constant consent of Catholics as theological truths and conclusions, so certain that opinions opposed to these same forms of doctrine, although they cannot be called heretical, nevertheless deserve some theological censure.” Tuas Libenter (1863), DZ 1684.


Dear Gregory I.  Way back Doce Me said that Our Lord can and does baptize on His own.  After all... He is God and were are mere little insects (so to speak).

SO I hope everybody here believes in Limbo. I Hope everybody here also acknowledges the teachings of Florence and Trent and Also the Encyclical Called Mystici Corporis Christi. The part where Pope Pius XII says there is no way to be made a member of the church except through baptism.

And the Council of Florence , where it says: "All those who die in mortal sin, or in original sin alone, descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments." Or the Part where it says: "...and this unity of the church is so strong that nobody, even if they shed their blood for the faith, if they die outside the church cannot be saved."



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-03-2011

:laughing: Where in scripture or tradition or in the fathers or in the magisterial documents of the church is stated or implied that Christ confers the sacraments directly in his own person apart from the ministerial action of the priest, and after death?

God LIMITED salvation to Christ alone. Christ limited the means to the SACRAMENTS. Since Christ is God, can he mean less than what he says in the second case, but not the first?

Christ will not be limited by the circumstances of those who truly desire Christ and are truly impeded by no fault of their own from obtaining baptism. I know, because the Bible records how it happens!

However, the notion of BOD is not found in scripture, nor is it found in the magisterial documents of the Church. If you acknowledge BOD as true, then you must say that a person can be justified by faith apart from the sacraments: I don't see it. If GOd cares enough to give a person grace, then he will illuminate them as to the SOLE instrumental means whereby they must be saved: There is no other way than baptism, at least, that's what Jesus said, at least 3 times. How can he be pleasing to God who professes to have faith in him, but either chooses to not receive the sacrament (As is the case in some protestants) , or has only a vague faith in him (The secular culture) but are culpably ignorant, or those who in the darkness of their mind, which is a punishment for sin, refuse to acknowledge the truth. As for the invincibly ignorant, it has been revealed in the scriptures that God does not reveal his gospel to the reprobate; and they are reprobate on account of their sinfullness. THerefore, those who die withou having heard the gospel are justly condemned for their sinful way of life, and because they would never have believed had they heard anyway.

2 Cor. 4. 1-4 : "Therefore, since it is by God's mercy that we are engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 We have renounced the shameful things that one hides; we refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God's word; but by the open statement of the truth we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

As Jesus said: "Those who are of God hear the words of God. But you do not hear, because you are not of God." The reprobate (Those God has chosen to not elect to salvation) do not hear the gospel. It is not because God could not save them, but on account of the hardness of their hearts, God basically is not wasting his time with them. Their wills are free, and he knows they will not change, and so they do not hear.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-03-2011

(06-03-2011, 12:03 AM)Gregory I Wrote: :laughing: Where in scripture or tradition or in the fathers or in the magisterial documents of the church is stated or implied that Christ confers the sacraments directly in his own person apart from the ministerial action of the priest, and after death?

God LIMITED salvation to Christ alone. Christ limited the means to the SACRAMENTS. Since Christ is God, can he mean less than what he says in the second case, but not the first?

Christ will not be limited by the circumstances of those who truly desire Christ and are truly impeded by no fault of their own from obtaining baptism. I know, because the Bible records how it happens!

However, the notion of BOD is not found in scripture, nor is it found in the magisterial documents of the Church. If you acknowledge BOD as true, then you must say that a person can be justified by faith apart from the sacraments: I don't see it. If GOd cares enough to give a person grace, then he will illuminate them as to the SOLE instrumental means whereby they must be saved: There is no other way than baptism, at least, that's what Jesus said, at least 3 times. How can he be pleasing to God who professes to have faith in him, but either chooses to not receive the sacrament (As is the case in some protestants) , or has only a vague faith in him (The secular culture) but are culpably ignorant, or those who in the darkness of their mind, which is a punishment for sin, refuse to acknowledge the truth. As for the invincibly ignorant, it has been revealed in the scriptures that God does not reveal his gospel to the reprobate; and they are reprobate on account of their sinfullness. THerefore, those who die withou having heard the gospel are justly condemned for their sinful way of life, and because they would never have believed had they heard anyway.

2 Cor. 4. 1-4 : "Therefore, since it is by God's mercy that we are engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 We have renounced the shameful things that one hides; we refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God's word; but by the open statement of the truth we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

As Jesus said: "Those who are of God hear the words of God. But you do not hear, because you are not of God." The reprobate (Those God has chosen to not elect to salvation) do not hear the gospel. It is not because God could not save them, but on account of the hardness of their hearts, God basically is not wasting his time with them. Their wills are free, and he knows they will not change, and so they do not hear.

Of course you are right, dear Gregory I, if these were normal times. The problem you have is one of anachronism.  If you take the time to investigate what the intention is in the rite of Baptism in the Novus Ordo Church, you will find that the intention is not catholic but masonic.  And if you compare both ceremonies, traditional and NO, you will be shocked at the difference.  Please, then, undertake a comparative study between the real Rite of Baptism in 1958 and the false rite of baptism in 1976.  Thank you very much.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 06-03-2011

(06-02-2011, 08:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-02-2011, 12:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-01-2011, 11:40 PM)wulfrano Wrote: Ultimately, the mercy of God has the last word.

Actually, isn't the Justice of God the last word?

Dear friend Stubborn:  God is so just that He is above all merciful.

I certainly hope so...........but I think that His mercy is more in play while we live and breath. IOW - in His infinite mercy, He may take one from this world before they can procure through sin, greater punishment for themselves in the next - when they meet His infinite justice. Therefore, the "last" or "final word" so to speak, is God's justice at our judgement.

Either way, it is all tied into His Divine Providence.

As far as BOD goes, best to keep it simple........in the Holy Sacrifice, we pray in the Credo - Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum -  I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

But simplest of all is Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

I mean really - the whole "3 baptisms" thing makes no sense whatsoever in light of just the above two simple truths.



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-03-2011

(06-03-2011, 09:27 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-02-2011, 08:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-02-2011, 12:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-01-2011, 11:40 PM)wulfrano Wrote: Ultimately, the mercy of God has the last word.

Actually, isn't the Justice of God the last word?

Dear friend Stubborn:  God is so just that He is above all merciful.

I certainly hope so...........but I think that His mercy is more in play while we live and breath. IOW - in His infinite mercy, He may take one from this world before they can procure through sin, greater punishment for themselves in the next - when they meet His infinite justice. Therefore, the "last" or "final word" so to speak, is God's justice at our judgement.

Either way, it is all tied into His Divine Providence.

As far as BOD goes, best to keep it simple........in the Holy Sacrifice, we pray in the Credo - Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum -  I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

But simplest of all is Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

I mean really - the whole "3 baptisms" thing makes no sense whatsoever in light of just the above two simple truths.

What happens is that today we are living in abnormal times.  And the worst part is that time is running short.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 06-04-2011

Quote: and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.

Doce, I don't believe it pitting Pope against Pope (well maybe these later Popes). So we MAY have a contradiction.  Here is what is at issue.  A Catholic could look at the naked savages and conclude they are damned.  However, this is not so.  The Lord can work a miracle, like sending a preacher.

No where does Pope Pius IX say that these people are saved without Faith or Baptism.  It says they are able to attain eternal life.  So we can conclude the Holy Spirit kept it vague to avoid a contradiction.  They can attain eternal life because God can (and has) send a preacher.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-04-2011

(06-04-2011, 07:56 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.

Doce, I don't believe it pitting Pope against Pope (well maybe these later Popes). So we MAY have a contradiction.  Here is what is at issue.  A Catholic could look at the naked savages and conclude they are damned.  However, this is not so.  The Lord can work a miracle, like sending a preacher.

No where does Pope Pius IX say that these people are saved without Faith or Baptism.  It says they are able to attain eternal life.  So we can conclude the Holy Spirit kept it vague to avoid a contradiction.  They can attain eternal life because God can (and has) send a preacher.


How about He Himself being the preacher?