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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - UnamSanctam - 06-13-2011

(06-13-2011, 10:03 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote: "You are showing two faces - no one knows whether you are "hot or cold"......which of your faces is true?"

None of my faces are true.  The only true thing is Truth Itself.  Fr. Feeney had the guts to go against Pius XII and that puts him off my list.

I have no time and no need to read about Feeney.

My personal opinion of him is that he was a show-off.

I am glad he got what he got.

If he was so concerned about salvation of non-catholics, why didn't he go to Africa or Asia and baptize heathens and pagans and muslims and atheists, instead of hanging on to his microphone?  Look at today's Protestants.  They are going to those places baptizing and handing out free Bibles and risking and losing their lives doing it.  Don't tell me they, in spite of being heretics,  don't have a better chance of salvation than today's show-off bingo-playing do-nothing non-missionary clergy.

I would say that they have an equal shot at salvation.

"Whoever does not gather with me scatters". The Prots gather into a false fold, the complacent 'bingo players' gather nothing.

Thank you, Unam Sanctam, for your splendid and balanced comments.

Read Pope Leo XIII Satis Cogitum

an excellent encyclical by our Pope of fond memory.



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-13-2011

(06-13-2011, 10:04 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 10:03 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote: "You are showing two faces - no one knows whether you are "hot or cold"......which of your faces is true?"

None of my faces are true.  The only true thing is Truth Itself.  Fr. Feeney had the guts to go against Pius XII and that puts him off my list.

I have no time and no need to read about Feeney.

My personal opinion of him is that he was a show-off.

I am glad he got what he got.

If he was so concerned about salvation of non-catholics, why didn't he go to Africa or Asia and baptize heathens and pagans and muslims and atheists, instead of hanging on to his microphone?  Look at today's Protestants.  They are going to those places baptizing and handing out free Bibles and risking and losing their lives doing it.  Don't tell me they, in spite of being heretics,  don't have a better chance of salvation than today's show-off bingo-playing do-nothing non-missionary clergy.

I would say that they have an equal shot at salvation.

"Whoever does not gather with me scatters". The Prots gather into a false fold, the complacent 'bingo players' gather nothing.

Thank you, Unam Sanctam, for your splendid and balanced comments.

Read Pope Leo XIII Satis Cogitum

an excellent encyclical by our Pope of fond memory.

Could you give me a pertinent summary?




Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - UnamSanctam - 06-13-2011

(06-13-2011, 10:17 PM)wulfrano Wrote: Could you give me a pertinent summary?

<<The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).>>

This excerpt essentially summarizes the fact that heretics are outside of the fold of Christ, separated from His body the Church, and cannot attain salvation.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-13-2011

(06-13-2011, 10:23 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 10:17 PM)wulfrano Wrote: Could you give me a pertinent summary?

<<The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).>>

This excerpt essentially summarizes the fact that heretics are outside of the fold of Christ, separated from His body the Church, and cannot attain salvation.


Thank you very much, Unam Sanctam, for the pertinent summary.  I agree with you. However I insist that God Almighty can change the heart of anyone at anytime.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 06-14-2011

(06-13-2011, 09:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote: "You are showing two faces - no one knows whether you are "hot or cold"......which of your faces is true?"

None of my faces are true.  The only true thing is Truth Itself.  Fr. Feeney had the guts to go against Pius XII and that puts him off my list.

I have no time and no need to read about Feeney.

My personal opinion of him is that he was a show-off.

I am glad he got what he got.

If he was so concerned about salvation of non-catholics, why didn't he go to Africa or Asia and baptize heathens and pagans and muslims and atheists, instead of hanging on to his microphone?  Look at today's Protestants.  They are going to those places baptizing and handing out free Bibles and risking and losing their lives doing it.  Don't tell me they, in spite of being heretics,  don't have a better chance of salvation than today's show-off bingo-playing do-nothing non-missionary clergy.

Your comments show that you know nothing about him - as such, try to refrain from slandering him.

Aside from that, wulfrano, you still have not provided any quote  - why not?

Perhaps you can provide a Church teaching that has nothing to do with BOD where the Church teaches that the Doctrine of God's Divine Providence, means that God creates circumstances for no purpose - other than to break His own Law, thereby showing His infinite mercy.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-14-2011

(06-14-2011, 08:35 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote: "You are showing two faces - no one knows whether you are "hot or cold"......which of your faces is true?"

None of my faces are true.  The only true thing is Truth Itself.  Fr. Feeney had the guts to go against Pius XII and that puts him off my list.

I have no time and no need to read about Feeney.

My personal opinion of him is that he was a show-off.

I am glad he got what he got.

If he was so concerned about salvation of non-catholics, why didn't he go to Africa or Asia and baptize heathens and pagans and muslims and atheists, instead of hanging on to his microphone?  Look at today's Protestants.  They are going to those places baptizing and handing out free Bibles and risking and losing their lives doing it.  Don't tell me they, in spite of being heretics,  don't have a better chance of salvation than today's show-off bingo-playing do-nothing non-missionary clergy.

Your comments show that you know nothing about him - as such, try to refrain from slandering him.

Aside from that, wulfrano, you still have not provided any quote  - why not?

Perhaps you can provide a Church teaching that has nothing to do with BOD where the Church teaches that the Doctrine of God's Divine Providence, means that God creates circumstances for no purpose - other than to break His own Law, thereby showing His infinite mercy.

When God performs a miracle HE IS NOT BREAKING HIS OWN LAWS OF NATURE.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-15-2011

(06-14-2011, 07:13 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-14-2011, 08:35 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote: "You are showing two faces - no one knows whether you are "hot or cold"......which of your faces is true?"

None of my faces are true.  The only true thing is Truth Itself.  Fr. Feeney had the guts to go against Pius XII and that puts him off my list.

I have no time and no need to read about Feeney.

My personal opinion of him is that he was a show-off.

I am glad he got what he got.

If he was so concerned about salvation of non-catholics, why didn't he go to Africa or Asia and baptize heathens and pagans and muslims and atheists, instead of hanging on to his microphone?  Look at today's Protestants.  They are going to those places baptizing and handing out free Bibles and risking and losing their lives doing it.  Don't tell me they, in spite of being heretics,  don't have a better chance of salvation than today's show-off bingo-playing do-nothing non-missionary clergy.

Your comments show that you know nothing about him - as such, try to refrain from slandering him.

Aside from that, wulfrano, you still have not provided any quote  - why not?

Perhaps you can provide a Church teaching that has nothing to do with BOD where the Church teaches that the Doctrine of God's Divine Providence, means that God creates circumstances for no purpose - other than to break His own Law, thereby showing His infinite mercy.

When God performs a miracle HE IS NOT BREAKING HIS OWN LAWS OF NATURE.

Okay, before I join you in jumping off the deep end, I should inform you that very few people are able to tread the waters of blind passion. Be sure you can swim. If not, initiate the use of your emergency flotation device.

First realize something here: If God does a miracle, he does not do so arbitrarily, but only for one reason: To aid in the conversion of people's to the true faith. A miracle is a temporal suspension of the laws of nature that is only possible for God to do. True. But God MADE NO COVENANT with the laws of gravity or physics. THey are inanimate elemental forces, and as such are tools that he can bend to his will.

BUT WE ARE NOT TOOLS! At least not only. We are people. And not only are we rational beings, but we are beings with whom the Great God has covenanted himself, that is, he swore in oath in the blood of his Son, his only Son, saying that we will now be saved who place our faith in him, and are baptized. As such, this almighty Triune God of ours CANNOT change his mind as to the means of salvation, he cannot abrogate the workings of salvation, and he cannot circumvent the means HE ESTABLISHED by ANY miracle soever. God cannot do any miracle that contradicts his will: And his WILL is that all those who are to be saved, are to be saved through baptism, the Council of Trent AND the Catechism of the Council of Trent bearing witness.

Oh, and if you say that we are "llimiting" God, then tell me: WHo limited God when he swore to Noah that he would never destroy the earth again in a massive worldwide deluge? If I claim that God cannot and will not ever do such a thing, am I wrong? NO! For GOd has sworn, and will not change his mind: It is not his will to break his promise.

LIKEWISE, God has spoken in the new covenant, established in the blood of Christ which is the Font of all the sacraments: "Amen, AMen, I say to you, unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

God will not create people who desire him in sincerity, only to leave them abandoned and without the means of salvation: He will provide for them.

And you need to stop avoiding the issue Wulfrano by shifting from theological truth to attacking the clergy. Sure, some are making mistakes, but you obviously do not have enough conviction to even follow through on your words. Until you do, be part of the solution. Otherwise, you simply compound the problem. Christ does not need another to rail against his ministers, imperfect as they are. Pray for them, and when possible, encourage them to preach more on sin and the need for repentance. Anything less than this comes from the evil one.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-15-2011

(06-15-2011, 01:50 AM)Gregory I Wrote:
(06-14-2011, 07:13 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-14-2011, 08:35 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-13-2011, 09:23 PM)wulfrano Wrote: "You are showing two faces - no one knows whether you are "hot or cold"......which of your faces is true?"

None of my faces are true.  The only true thing is Truth Itself.  Fr. Feeney had the guts to go against Pius XII and that puts him off my list.

I have no time and no need to read about Feeney.

My personal opinion of him is that he was a show-off.

I am glad he got what he got.

If he was so concerned about salvation of non-catholics, why didn't he go to Africa or Asia and baptize heathens and pagans and muslims and atheists, instead of hanging on to his microphone?  Look at today's Protestants.  They are going to those places baptizing and handing out free Bibles and risking and losing their lives doing it.  Don't tell me they, in spite of being heretics,  don't have a better chance of salvation than today's show-off bingo-playing do-nothing non-missionary clergy.

Your comments show that you know nothing about him - as such, try to refrain from slandering him.

Aside from that, wulfrano, you still have not provided any quote  - why not?

Perhaps you can provide a Church teaching that has nothing to do with BOD where the Church teaches that the Doctrine of God's Divine Providence, means that God creates circumstances for no purpose - other than to break His own Law, thereby showing His infinite mercy.

When God performs a miracle HE IS NOT BREAKING HIS OWN LAWS OF NATURE.

Okay, before I join you in jumping off the deep end, I should inform you that very few people are able to tread the waters of blind passion. Be sure you can swim. If not, initiate the use of your emergency flotation device.

First realize something here: If God does a miracle, he does not do so arbitrarily, but only for one reason: To aid in the conversion of people's to the true faith. A miracle is a temporal suspension of the laws of nature that is only possible for God to do. True. But God MADE NO COVENANT with the laws of gravity or physics. THey are inanimate elemental forces, and as such are tools that he can bend to his will.

BUT WE ARE NOT TOOLS! At least not only. We are people. And not only are we rational beings, but we are beings with whom the Great God has covenanted himself, that is, he swore in oath in the blood of his Son, his only Son, saying that we will now be saved who place our faith in him, and are baptized. As such, this almighty Triune God of ours CANNOT change his mind as to the means of salvation, he cannot abrogate the workings of salvation, and he cannot circumvent the means HE ESTABLISHED by ANY miracle soever. God cannot do any miracle that contradicts his will: And his WILL is that all those who are to be saved, are to be saved through baptism, the Council of Trent AND the Catechism of the Council of Trent bearing witness.

Oh, and if you say that we are "llimiting" God, then tell me: WHo limited God when he swore to Noah that he would never destroy the earth again in a massive worldwide deluge? If I claim that God cannot and will not ever do such a thing, am I wrong? NO! For GOd has sworn, and will not change his mind: It is not his will to break his promise.

LIKEWISE, God has spoken in the new covenant, established in the blood of Christ which is the Font of all the sacraments: "Amen, AMen, I say to you, unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

God will not create people who desire him in sincerity, only to leave them abandoned and without the means of salvation: He will provide for them.

And you need to stop avoiding the issue Wulfrano by shifting from theological truth to attacking the clergy. Sure, some are making mistakes, but you obviously do not have enough conviction to even follow through on your words. Until you do, be part of the solution. Otherwise, you simply compound the problem. Christ does not need another to rail against his ministers, imperfect as they are. Pray for them, and when possible, encourage them to preach more on sin and the need for repentance. Anything less than this comes from the evil one.


Dear Gregory I:  I am really impressed with your diatribe.  You seem to have, as indeed you should, a microscopic view of God.  Do you, by chance, have a living personal experience of Eternity?  If you do, then I must agree with you that God is not free.  But this is blasphemous.  God is Liberty Itself.  God is Essential Freedom.  He is free to do whatever he wants with what is his.  And if he wants to save a sinner directly he will simply do it.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-15-2011

No, GOd will only do what is in his will according to his nature. Yes or no? God cannot do ANYTHING arbitrarily. He cannot break his own commands, like lie or steal, he cannot violate his promises, to not flood the earth, and he ESPECIALLY does not violate his covenant sworn in the blood of his Son.

Or did I miss something?

Why don't you tell me this:

Can God flood the earth and engulf it in a deluge of water? Specifically.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-15-2011

(06-15-2011, 02:30 AM)Gregory I Wrote: No, GOd will only do what is in his will according to his nature. Yes or no? God cannot do ANYTHING arbitrarily. He cannot break his own commands, like lie or steal, he cannot violate his promises, to not flood the earth, and he ESPECIALLY does not violate his covenant sworn in the blood of his Son.

Or did I miss something?

Why don't you tell me this:

Can God flood the earth and engulf it in a deluge of water? Specifically.

(1) Whatever God wants is holy.

(2) Can God flood the earth and engulf it in a deluge of water?  Of course.