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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-18-2011

Well, if you have no basis for understanding what you believe, why do you believe it?

I am asking you to make your beliefs clear in the face of the ordinary magisterium, the catechism of the council of Trent, and every latin church father post-Augustine.

DO you have a scriptural basis for why you believe what you do? Where in God's revealed word does he actually act the way you posit?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-18-2011

(06-18-2011, 03:00 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Well, if you have no basis for understanding what you believe, why do you believe it?

I am asking you to make your beliefs clear in the face of the ordinary magisterium, the catechism of the council of Trent, and every latin church father post-Augustine.

DO you have a scriptural basis for why you believe what you do? Where in God's revealed word does he actually act the way you posit?

Dear Gregory I:  I am not about to do your homework.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-18-2011

You misunderstand, I KNOW why I believe what I do, and I KNOW that my beliefs ar ein line with the ordinary and universal magisterium of the church and the catechisms issued by that church, not to mention the constant sense of the scriptures, etc.

But apparently, because you basically claimed to not be a theologian as an excuse, you don't really APPEAR to have any basis for what you believe.

SO on what legs do you stand? Why do you believe in IMPLICIT BOD or in BOD at all? YOu basically said just because. THat's an answer, but not a reason, because it's not reasonable.

SO are you "prepared to give a defense for the hope that is in you"? Or do you simply believe what you want regardless of the church's stance (The majority of liberal theologians notwithstanding)?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-18-2011

(06-18-2011, 04:07 AM)Gregory I Wrote: You misunderstand, I KNOW why I believe what I do, and I KNOW that my beliefs ar ein line with the ordinary and universal magisterium of the church and the catechisms issued by that church, not to mention the constant sense of the scriptures, etc.

But apparently, because you basically claimed to not be a theologian as an excuse, you don't really APPEAR to have any basis for what you believe.

SO on what legs do you stand? Why do you believe in IMPLICIT BOD or in BOD at all? YOu basically said just because. THat's an answer, but not a reason, because it's not reasonable.

SO are you "prepared to give a defense for the hope that is in you"? Or do you simply believe what you want regardless of the church's stance (The majority of liberal theologians notwithstanding)?

What I have been telling you is the result of too many hours of study over hundreds of volumes... and I simply won't do your homework.  You do it!


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-18-2011

You misunderstand, I don't NEED to do ANY homework. I am asking you to give me an authoritative basis for YOUR position. I don't need to know it, but it would be nice if you could at least express some of it. After all, with 100's of hours of study, surely you can think of some rational basis for your opinions? ;D

What are they? Explain yourself.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-18-2011

(06-18-2011, 04:22 AM)Gregory I Wrote: You misunderstand, I don't NEED to do ANY homework. I am asking you to give me an authoritative basis for YOUR position. I don't need to know it, but it would be nice if you could at least express some of it. After all, with 100's of hours of study, surely you can think of some rational basis for your opinions? ;D

What are they? Explain yourself.

It's a word here, a word there, a line here, a line there.  Where are they?  They are in the pages of hundreds of books and booklets and leaflets I've read.  What pages, what books, what leaflets?  I can't remember.  That's your job!  That's your homework!  You do it!  But you have it easy.  All you have to do is press a few keys in Google, Yahoo, Firefox, Google Chrome, Windows Internet Explorer, Bing, et voilá!


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-18-2011

You seem to have a habit of complaining about people.

I do not need to vindicate your beliefs, YOU do.

So why would you believe in the implicit "desire" for baptism if it is not in the ordinary magisterium? Or maybe you know where it is?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - UnamSanctam - 06-18-2011

Another few quotes from the illustrious Augustine via the great writer Pope Leo XIII, the following excerpt does contain:

<<Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him wholly and entirely. "The Head and the body are Christ wholly and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten son of God, the body is His Church; the bridegroom and the bride, two in one flesh. All who dissent from the Scriptures concerning Christ, although they may be found in all places in which the Church is found, are not in the Church; and again all those who agree with the Scriptures concerning the Head, and do not communicate in the unity of the Church, are not in the Church" (S. Augustinus, Contra Donatistas Epistola, sive De Unit. Eccl., cap. iv., n. 7).

And with the same yearning Our soul goes out to those whom the foul breath of irreligion has not entirely corrupted, and who at least seek to have the true God, the Creator of Heaven and earth, as their Father. Let such as these take counsel with themselves, and realize that they can in no wise be counted among the children of God, unless they take Christ Jesus as their Brother, and at the same time the Church as their mother. We lovingly address to all the words of St. Augustine: "Let us love the Lord our God; let us love His Church; the Lord as our Father, the Church as our Mother. Let no one say, I go in deed to idols, I consult fortune-tellers and soothsayers; but I leave not the Church of God: I am a Catholic. Clinging to thy Mother, thou offendest thy Father. Another, too, says: 'Far be it from me; I do not consult fortune-telling, I seek not soothsaying, I seek not profane divinations, I go not to the worship of devils, I serve not stones: but I am on the side of Donatus.' What doth it profit thee not to offend the Father, who avenges an offense against the Mother? What doth it profit to confess the Lord, to honour God, to preach Him, to acknowledge His Son, and to confess that He sits on the right hand of the Father, if you blaspheme His Church? . . . If you had a beneficent friend, whom you honoured daily - and even once calumniated his spouse, would you ever enter his house? Hold fast, therefore, O dearly beloved, hold fast altogether God as your Father, and the Church as your Mother" (Enarratio in Psal. Lxxxviii., sermo ii., n. 14). >>  Satis Cogitum


In the final citation, simply input Luther, Calvin or Joel Osteen, in place of Donatus, for more relevance.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-18-2011

(06-18-2011, 10:48 AM)Gregory I Wrote: You seem to have a habit of complaining about people.

I do not need to vindicate your beliefs, YOU do.

So why would you believe in the implicit "desire" for baptism if it is not in the ordinary magisterium? Or maybe you know where it is?

You will find it in the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, in the Council of Trent sessions on the sacraments , in a Pope Pius IX declaration, in the Catechism of St. Pius X, and in the Holy Office admonition to Feeney and excommunication thereof under Pope Pius XII .


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-18-2011

(06-18-2011, 07:29 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: Another few quotes from the illustrious Augustine via the great writer Pope Leo XIII, the following excerpt does contain:

<<Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him wholly and entirely. "The Head and the body are Christ wholly and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten son of God, the body is His Church; the bridegroom and the bride, two in one flesh. All who dissent from the Scriptures concerning Christ, although they may be found in all places in which the Church is found, are not in the Church; and again all those who agree with the Scriptures concerning the Head, and do not communicate in the unity of the Church, are not in the Church" (S. Augustinus, Contra Donatistas Epistola, sive De Unit. Eccl., cap. iv., n. 7).

And with the same yearning Our soul goes out to those whom the foul breath of irreligion has not entirely corrupted, and who at least seek to have the true God, the Creator of Heaven and earth, as their Father. Let such as these take counsel with themselves, and realize that they can in no wise be counted among the children of God, unless they take Christ Jesus as their Brother, and at the same time the Church as their mother. We lovingly address to all the words of St. Augustine: "Let us love the Lord our God; let us love His Church; the Lord as our Father, the Church as our Mother. Let no one say, I go in deed to idols, I consult fortune-tellers and soothsayers; but I leave not the Church of God: I am a Catholic. Clinging to thy Mother, thou offendest thy Father. Another, too, says: 'Far be it from me; I do not consult fortune-telling, I seek not soothsaying, I seek not profane divinations, I go not to the worship of devils, I serve not stones: but I am on the side of Donatus.' What doth it profit thee not to offend the Father, who avenges an offense against the Mother? What doth it profit to confess the Lord, to honour God, to preach Him, to acknowledge His Son, and to confess that He sits on the right hand of the Father, if you blaspheme His Church? . . . If you had a beneficent friend, whom you honoured daily - and even once calumniated his spouse, would you ever enter his house? Hold fast, therefore, O dearly beloved, hold fast altogether God as your Father, and the Church as your Mother" (Enarratio in Psal. Lxxxviii., sermo ii., n. 14). >>  Satis Cogitum


In the final citation, simply input Luther, Calvin or Joel Osteen, in place of Donatus, for more relevance.

"Enarratio in Psal." by St. Agustin is a must read book for any true well-taught catholic!