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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Doce Me - 06-22-2011

(06-22-2011, 10:41 PM)Gregory I Wrote: But Pope Pius IX does NOT say that, he says that we can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is not personally guilty. But he did not say by what means an invincibly ignorant person MIGHT be saved. I contend that if someone REALLY desires Christ, then Christ will make the Sacraments available, miracuolously if need be.

Pope Pius IX says:

Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 06-22-2011

So are you calling the Athanasian CREED heresy?

We have to have a formula where the Church is not contradicting itself.  So what is meant by divine Light?

Well, we have an example from scripture, put there for a reason, of the invincibly ignorant Eunuch.  Grace made him search for the Truth.  the Divine Light came in form of a miraculously transported preacher.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-22-2011

(06-22-2011, 10:57 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:41 PM)Gregory I Wrote: But Pope Pius IX does NOT say that, he says that we can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is not personally guilty. But he did not say by what means an invincibly ignorant person MIGHT be saved. I contend that if someone REALLY desires Christ, then Christ will make the Sacraments available, miracuolously if need be.

Pope Pius IX says:

Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them.

He describes the case of a good-living but invincibly ignorant person. He says that this person can reach eternal life "by the operating power of divine light and grace." But, since he has just stated emphatically, in the first sentence, that nobody can attain eternal life while "separated from the true Faith and from Catholic unity," the phrase, "by the operating power of divine light and grace," necessarily means that God will not fail to provide such a person of good will with what he needs in order to end this separation. Included in what God will provide in order for that person to be welcomed into the true Faith and Catholic unity, where alone he "can attain eternal life," will certainly be the sacrament of Baptism. This is exactly what God miraculously provided for Cornelius the Centurion, for the Eunuch of Candace, and for Saul of Tarsus, as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles.

Here is the WHOLE passage in question:

"And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life.

Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching.

It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God Who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.

But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom "the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior," cannot obtain eternal salvation."

He describes the case of a good-living but invincibly ignorant person. He says that this person can reach eternal life "by the operating power of divine light and grace." But, since he has just stated emphatically, in the first sentence, that nobody can attain eternal life while "separated from the true Faith and from Catholic unity," the phrase, "by the operating power of divine light and grace," necessarily means that God will not fail to provide such a person of good will with what he needs in order to end this separation. Included in what God will provide in order for that person to be welcomed into the true Faith and Catholic unity, where alone he "can attain eternal life," will certainly be the sacrament of Baptism. This is exactly what God miraculously provided for Cornelius the Centurion, for the Eunuch of Candace, and for Saul of Tarsus, as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles.

THis simply means they may be inspired to convert to the Catholic faith. It does not say BAPTISM OF DESIRE, nor does it suggest it. Think about it, how would GOd work in this situation? Sanctifying grace is not forced, it must be freely chosen. How can they make this choice apart from the proclamation of the gospel? How will they know what to choose? Does God just infuse grace randomly, when he has said REPEATEDLY through the church and through scripture that only the baptized will enter into heaven?

Otherwise, what do you think Jesus means in Rev. 22:14-16 : "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Looks like only the baptized have the right to the tree of life, which is the fruits of the cross, like the sacraments. ANd it looks like they are the only ones in the city, and it also looks like all those outside are condemned, Christ himself bearing witness.

I am sorry, but supporters of BOD would have us deny the plain sense of scripture and the words of Christ. All the speculating and theorizing in the world will NEVER change this fact: No one can be saved without being born again. No one can be born again without being baptized. THerefore, no one can be saved without being baptized.

Where did Christ EVER teach otherwise? Where do the scriptures? Where, in the ordinary magisterium, does the Church mention Baptism of desire as the modern theologians spell it out (that either an implicit or explicit desire for baptism is sufficient to be sanctified and justified, and is MORE than just a necessary disposition)?

NOWHERE. I am open to you showing me something though if you can find it. I am not in the habit of being hard-headed, just sticking to the truth until LEGITIMATELY being shown to be in error.





Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-22-2011

(06-22-2011, 10:47 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:07 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Tellme, since all the sacraments are oriented toward salvation, what if BOD was true, and a person died desiring baptism and they went to heaven. They have attained the ultimate and highest initiation, being in the closest possible unity with Christ, they have achieved the goal of all the sacraments. Say they came to life again miraculously: Since they had gone to heaven, could they then receive the Eucharist or do they need to be baptiszed first? They need to be baptized, even then! Why? THey went to heaven, they are obviously at least in the "soul" of the church right? WHy can't they then receive the eucharist without baptism?

You are talking about God "miraculously" ripping someone out of the beatific vision, out of eternal life.  That makes absolutely no sense.  If God gives a man sanctifying grace by baptism of desire, and the man then dies, he is saved and no longer needs the sacraments.  In this life, the sacrament of Baptism is needed in order to receive the Eucharist..

Gregory, note I posted a very long post 10 or 15 posts ago.  You can look at it if you want to.


This.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-22-2011

(06-22-2011, 10:57 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:41 PM)Gregory I Wrote: But Pope Pius IX does NOT say that, he says that we can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is not personally guilty. But he did not say by what means an invincibly ignorant person MIGHT be saved. I contend that if someone REALLY desires Christ, then Christ will make the Sacraments available, miracuolously if need be.

Pope Pius IX says:

Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them.


This.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 06-23-2011

Quote: THerefore, no one can be saved without being baptized.

AND Faith in Jesus Christ.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-23-2011

(06-23-2011, 01:04 AM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: THerefore, no one can be saved without being baptized.

AND Faith in Jesus Christ.

And faith in everything that pertains, at least essentially, to our beloved catholic religion, including a boundless love for the Mother of God.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 06-23-2011

(06-22-2011, 11:33 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:47 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:07 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Tellme, since all the sacraments are oriented toward salvation, what if BOD was true, and a person died desiring baptism and they went to heaven. They have attained the ultimate and highest initiation, being in the closest possible unity with Christ, they have achieved the goal of all the sacraments. Say they came to life again miraculously: Since they had gone to heaven, could they then receive the Eucharist or do they need to be baptiszed first? They need to be baptized, even then! Why? THey went to heaven, they are obviously at least in the "soul" of the church right? WHy can't they then receive the eucharist without baptism?

You are talking about God "miraculously" ripping someone out of the beatific vision, out of eternal life.  That makes absolutely no sense.  If God gives a man sanctifying grace by baptism of desire, and the man then dies, he is saved and no longer needs the sacraments.  In this life, the sacrament of Baptism is needed in order to receive the Eucharist..

Gregory, note I posted a very long post 10 or 15 posts ago.  You can look at it if you want to.


This.

Ok, you need to observe what I said. if a person died, and went to heaven without baptism, but was then ressurected because of the prayers of someone else, is that person entitled to the sacraments? Or do they need to be baptized?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Pheo - 06-23-2011

(06-23-2011, 02:49 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Ok, you need to observe what I said. if a person died, and went to heaven without baptism, but was then ressurected because of the prayers of someone else, is that person entitled to the sacraments? Or do they need to be baptized?

If a person has gone to Heaven - they've gone through the particular judgement - there's nothing that's going to bring them back.  What's the value in hypothesizing about an impossible situation?
Hebrews 9:27 Wrote:And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment.



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 06-23-2011

(06-23-2011, 02:49 AM)Gregory I Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 11:33 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:47 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 10:07 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Tellme, since all the sacraments are oriented toward salvation, what if BOD was true, and a person died desiring baptism and they went to heaven. They have attained the ultimate and highest initiation, being in the closest possible unity with Christ, they have achieved the goal of all the sacraments. Say they came to life again miraculously: Since they had gone to heaven, could they then receive the Eucharist or do they need to be baptiszed first? They need to be baptized, even then! Why? THey went to heaven, they are obviously at least in the "soul" of the church right? WHy can't they then receive the eucharist without baptism?

You are talking about God "miraculously" ripping someone out of the beatific vision, out of eternal life.  That makes absolutely no sense.  If God gives a man sanctifying grace by baptism of desire, and the man then dies, he is saved and no longer needs the sacraments.  In this life, the sacrament of Baptism is needed in order to receive the Eucharist..

Gregory, note I posted a very long post 10 or 15 posts ago.  You can look at it if you want to.


This.

Ok, you need to observe what I said. if a person died, and went to heaven without baptism, but was then ressurected because of the prayers of someone else, is that person entitled to the sacraments? Or do they need to be baptized?

Once in Heaven you are there forever.  You don't need anything but the Lord Himself directly.