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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 07-02-2011

(07-01-2011, 07:40 PM)Gregory I Wrote: But herein lies a question Stubborn: Is not the intended vow to receive baptism an acknowledgement of its absolute necessity?

Certainly.

(07-01-2011, 07:40 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Now, if a person were to die properly disposed, and ACKNOWLEDGING this fact (Hence the Vow to receive it at all), in what way is the absolute necessity of the sacrament compromised? In fact, could we not say that he would be saved BECAUSE he acknowledged the TRUTH of its absolute necessity, yet were themselves incapable of receiving it? IN other words, though there was no water, the sacrament was not thereby degraded, but rather the greatness of the sacrament so filled the desire of the person to receive it, that he died in God's friendship?

I know we have said God does not allow these circumstances to arise, but let's be cautious saying that.

You said it very well before - - - if one dies without the water, then the assumption is that the person was insincere.

There is not one single solitary person in this world who, if sincere and desires baptism will die without it. God will never deny that person water and a minister regardless of circumstances.........whether that person is in the middle of the Sahara or the middle of the Pacific alone or about to be decapitated for the faith. To believe otherwise, IMO, makes human reason prevail over Divine Providence.

Our Lord could sustain the birds on nothing at all, yet he feeds them - why? Because He deigned that His creatures eat or starve to death. Will He reward us salvation without water? IMO, No. Could He, IMO, Yes.

He told us to ask, see and knock if we want anything at all - why would He deny us something so necessary after commanding it's necessity I wonder?

He is the one that made it necessary, not us. He made the law and we are bound to that law - not Him.  We all can debate this subject 24 hours a day for 50 years but nothing will ever change these facts.

One day, IMO, the pope will either define it infallibly or explicitly condemn BOD. Until then, why tempt fate with BOD? 




Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 07-02-2011

I still do not disagree with what I said before, I am only trying to think a little bit more here:

Why would it be tempting fate to die as a catechumen who believes in the absolute necessity of Baptism? If the conditions were invincible, that is, they could not be overcome, and they were unforeseen, then how is fate tempted by the simple act of the person dying?

Say I believed as you do about Baptism. Say I was receiving instruction to be baptized: I acknowledge that baptism as an absolute necessity. Now, say I were to die on the way to the baptismal font, BELIEVING AS YOU DO in the absolute necessity of baptism.

What then?

I know we said that we should not suppose that GOd would allow this situation to come about. But hang on a second. THAT belief PRESUPPOSES that God is unwilling to grant salvation to any except those who have received the sacramental seal of baptism. Therefore, if any are to be saved, they must be saved as baptized, and God is OBLIGED to grant the water and the minister in all cases of salvation.
But has God revealed that he will work in ONLY this way? The Bible certainly does not portray salvation apart from baptism, that would be a mistake. Also, there is no other way to be made a formal member of the Church than baptism alone. Pope Pius XII bearing witness.

But the difficulty arises here:

What do you make of those Catechumens who hold to our strict view of salvation who die while being instructed in the faith, so long as they maintain a proper disposition?

Fr. Feeney says they are justified, but denies them heaven. On what basis?

I agree Stubborn: BOD CANNOT replace the formal entry into the church as initiation into the life of the church and entitle one to receive the sacraments.

But is it tempting fate to die through no fault of your own professing faith in the absolute necessity of baptism?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 07-03-2011

(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I still do not disagree with what I said before, I am only trying to think a little bit more here:

Why would it be tempting fate to die as a catechumen who believes in the absolute necessity of Baptism? If the conditions were invincible, that is, they could not be overcome, and they were unforeseen, then how is fate tempted by the simple act of the person dying?

I am saying that to teach anyone to rely on BOD is tempting fate.

(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Say I believed as you do about Baptism. Say I was receiving instruction to be baptized: I acknowledge that baptism as an absolute necessity. Now, say I were to die on the way to the baptismal font, BELIEVING AS YOU DO in the absolute necessity of baptism.

What then?

Well, one could expect one of three things - 1) be rewarded heaven because of your own sincere desire, 2)  be sent to Hell because of your own sincere desire or 3) actually receive the Sacrament before God allows you to die because of your own sincere desire.  I vote for number 3!


(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I know we said that we should not suppose that GOd would allow this situation to come about. But hang on a second. THAT belief PRESUPPOSES that God is unwilling to grant salvation to any except those who have received the sacramental seal of baptism. Therefore, if any are to be saved, they must be saved as baptized, and God is OBLIGED to grant the water and the minister in all cases of salvation.
But has God revealed that he will work in ONLY this way? The Bible certainly does not portray salvation apart from baptism, that would be a mistake. Also, there is no other way to be made a formal member of the Church than baptism alone. Pope Pius XII bearing witness.

God is not only obliged to grant the Sacrament, He will provide it to everyone who sincerely desires it. OTOH, if God allows for certain circumstances to reward Heaven without the Sacrament, He has not revealed that to us - only the contrary.


(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: But the difficulty arises here:

What do you make of those Catechumens who hold to our strict view of salvation who die while being instructed in the faith, so long as they maintain a proper disposition?

1st, I do not know. 2nd, if such a circumstance ever existed, one could (must?) assume the mercy of God toward the catechumen in limiting his suffering based on own his insincerity in the matter. 

(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Fr. Feeney says they are justified, but denies them heaven. On what basis?

Fr. Feeney goes into "Justification vs Salvation" superbly IMO. Chapter 7 of his Bread of Life goes into catechumens, where he writes:
This is the way the situation is now discussed in American seminaries:

"A man makes a perfect act of love. He is in the state of justification."

"How soon does he have to be baptized?"

"Within a reasonable period."

"What is a reasonable period?"

"Whatever the priest appoints."

"What would be a reasonable period to appoint?"

"Well, the candidate would have to be well instructed. In some countries, like Africa, for instance, a catechumen is instructed for three or four years. Poor, simple, untutored people have to be taught."

"Suppose one of these catechumens dies before being baptised?"...

That is where the seminary professor runs out of answers, and has to make up confused ones, with the assistance of the Baltimore Catechism, The Catholic Encyclopedia, and a few articles by some hitherto brilliant unknowns in the American Ecclesiastical Review..........



(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I agree Stubborn: BOD CANNOT replace the formal entry into the church as initiation into the life of the church and entitle one to receive the sacraments.

But is it tempting fate to die through no fault of your own professing faith in the absolute necessity of baptism?

Again, IMO, to believe in BOD is tempting fate - were one to die, the fact is that there is no way to ever know whether BOD worked or not...............OTOH, had the person received the Sacrament, there would be no doubt whatsoever.

On a side note, we know that as far as value is concerned, each and every soul is worth more than the world and everything in it - riches and all. We know this because the Devil offered the world to Our Lord in exchange for His soul.

God created our souls, they are more value to Him than we can imagine. He will never take any catechumen before they are ready, just to condemn that soul to hell for all eternity - because singularly, we are each more valuable to God than we can imagine and He will do whatever He needs to do to help us, provided we sincerely seek His help.  Who will have all men to be saved - but under His conditions, not our desires. If the catechumen sincerely desires baptism, he will receive baptism.

OTOH, He can reward heaven to the catechumen who only dies with BOD for all I care - but THAT is nowhere in Scripture or de fide declarations and opens has opened the door for all kinds of ridiculous teachings that outside the Church there is salvation.

For me, it is easy to believe that we are each unbelievably important to God, more important than we can ever understand in this life - when one believes this, there is no doubt that God will provide the Sacrament to whoever sincerely desires it before they face Him. There are no circumstances we can conjure up that will ever change that. To believe otherwise shows some lack of faith in His infinite omnipotent and almighty power - IMO.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 07-04-2011

(07-03-2011, 11:18 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I still do not disagree with what I said before, I am only trying to think a little bit more here:

Why would it be tempting fate to die as a catechumen who believes in the absolute necessity of Baptism? If the conditions were invincible, that is, they could not be overcome, and they were unforeseen, then how is fate tempted by the simple act of the person dying?

I am saying that to teach anyone to rely on BOD is tempting fate.

(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Say I believed as you do about Baptism. Say I was receiving instruction to be baptized: I acknowledge that baptism as an absolute necessity. Now, say I were to die on the way to the baptismal font, BELIEVING AS YOU DO in the absolute necessity of baptism.

What then?

Well, one could expect one of three things - 1) be rewarded heaven because of your own sincere desire, 2)  be sent to Hell because of your own sincere desire or 3) actually receive the Sacrament before God allows you to die because of your own sincere desire.  I vote for number 3!


(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I know we said that we should not suppose that GOd would allow this situation to come about. But hang on a second. THAT belief PRESUPPOSES that God is unwilling to grant salvation to any except those who have received the sacramental seal of baptism. Therefore, if any are to be saved, they must be saved as baptized, and God is OBLIGED to grant the water and the minister in all cases of salvation.
But has God revealed that he will work in ONLY this way? The Bible certainly does not portray salvation apart from baptism, that would be a mistake. Also, there is no other way to be made a formal member of the Church than baptism alone. Pope Pius XII bearing witness.

God is not only obliged to grant the Sacrament, He will provide it to everyone who sincerely desires it. OTOH, if God allows for certain circumstances to reward Heaven without the Sacrament, He has not revealed that to us - only the contrary.


(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: But the difficulty arises here:

What do you make of those Catechumens who hold to our strict view of salvation who die while being instructed in the faith, so long as they maintain a proper disposition?

1st, I do not know. 2nd, if such a circumstance ever existed, one could (must?) assume the mercy of God toward the catechumen in limiting his suffering based on own his insincerity in the matter.   

(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Fr. Feeney says they are justified, but denies them heaven. On what basis?

Fr. Feeney goes into "Justification vs Salvation" superbly IMO. Chapter 7 of his Bread of Life goes into catechumens, where he writes:
This is the way the situation is now discussed in American seminaries:

"A man makes a perfect act of love. He is in the state of justification."

"How soon does he have to be baptized?"

"Within a reasonable period."

"What is a reasonable period?"

"Whatever the priest appoints."

"What would be a reasonable period to appoint?"

"Well, the candidate would have to be well instructed. In some countries, like Africa, for instance, a catechumen is instructed for three or four years. Poor, simple, untutored people have to be taught."

"Suppose one of these catechumens dies before being baptised?"...

That is where the seminary professor runs out of answers, and has to make up confused ones, with the assistance of the Baltimore Catechism, The Catholic Encyclopedia, and a few articles by some hitherto brilliant unknowns in the American Ecclesiastical Review..........



(07-02-2011, 04:09 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I agree Stubborn: BOD CANNOT replace the formal entry into the church as initiation into the life of the church and entitle one to receive the sacraments.

But is it tempting fate to die through no fault of your own professing faith in the absolute necessity of baptism?

Again, IMO, to believe in BOD is tempting fate - were one to die, the fact is that there is no way to ever know whether BOD worked or not...............OTOH, had the person received the Sacrament, there would be no doubt whatsoever.

On a side note, we know that as far as value is concerned, each and every soul is worth more than the world and everything in it - riches and all. We know this because the Devil offered the world to Our Lord in exchange for His soul.

God created our souls, they are more value to Him than we can imagine. He will never take any catechumen before they are ready, just to condemn that soul to hell for all eternity - because singularly, we are each more valuable to God than we can imagine and He will do whatever He needs to do to help us, provided we sincerely seek His help.  Who will have all men to be saved - but under His conditions, not our desires. If the catechumen sincerely desires baptism, he will receive baptism.

OTOH, He can reward heaven to the catechumen who only dies with BOD for all I care - but THAT is nowhere in Scripture or de fide declarations and opens has opened the door for all kinds of ridiculous teachings that outside the Church there is salvation.

For me, it is easy to believe that we are each unbelievably important to God, more important than we can ever understand in this life - when one believes this, there is no doubt that God will provide the Sacrament to whoever sincerely desires it before they face Him. There are no circumstances we can conjure up that will ever change that. To believe otherwise shows some lack of faith in His infinite omnipotent and almighty power - IMO.

Good answer. :)


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - GottmitunsAlex - 07-07-2011

Interesting point of view


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 07-07-2011

So, we are agreed: Outside the visible structure of the church there is no salvation.

There is no pseudo Protestant invisible "church" to belong to that is not simultaneously the Roman Catholic Church, because the Roman Catholic Church IS the mystical body of Christ. That rules out the possibility of "invisible" or "implicit" membership. There is only explicit visible membership which can profit a man to salvation.

BUT CATECHUMENS...

Why CAN'T a Catechumen be a part of the visible structure of the church without at the same time being a formal member?

TO my mind there are the obvious objections; the church is the ark of Noah, and only those inside her are saved. The only way to be INSIDE the ark is to be...inside. TO be baptized is the only way to be made a formal visible member of the church, true.

But what about Bellarmine's opinion that a Catechumen is in the "vestibule" of the church, and that it is to the church that they have fled, and as such are visibly united to the church, inasmuch as they are being instructed by the church and have a visible status: That of catechumen.

So, then I suppose there are two questions to ask:

1. Where does the Church teach in her magisterial documents that a man may be saved apart from sacramental water baptism?

2. Where does the Church teach in her magisterial documents that a man must receive the sacramental character of water baptism to be saved?

Where does the truth lie?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 07-07-2011

(07-07-2011, 02:03 AM)Gregory I Wrote: So, we are agreed: Outside the visible structure of the church there is no salvation.

There is no pseudo Protestant invisible "church" to belong to that is not simultaneously the Roman Catholic Church, because the Roman Catholic Church IS the mystical body of Christ. That rules out the possibility of "invisible" or "implicit" membership. There is only explicit visible membership which can profit a man to salvation.

BUT CATECHUMENS...

Why CAN'T a Catechumen be a part of the visible structure of the church without at the same time being a formal member?

If we are to believe the command of Our Lord as well as defined dogma - Catechumens are outside the Church because they have not received the Sacrament of Baptism.

(07-07-2011, 02:03 AM)Gregory I Wrote: TO my mind there are the obvious objections; the church is the ark of Noah, and only those inside her are saved. The only way to be INSIDE the ark is to be...inside. TO be baptized is the only way to be made a formal visible member of the church, true.

But what about Bellarmine's opinion that a Catechumen is in the "vestibule" of the church, and that it is to the church that they have fled, and as such are visibly united to the church, inasmuch as they are being instructed by the church and have a visible status: That of catechumen.

It could easily be argued that the catechumen, residing in the vestibule is "waiting to enter, but as of yet not inside the Church".  The reason it can be argued is because it is not definitive i.e. binding.


(07-07-2011, 02:03 AM)Gregory I Wrote: So, then I suppose there are two questions to ask:

1. Where does the Church teach in her magisterial documents that a man may be saved apart from sacramental water baptism?

2. Where does the Church teach in her magisterial documents that a man must receive the sacramental character of water baptism to be saved?

Where does the truth lie?

1) Nowhere does the Church definitively that a man may be saved apart from sacramental water baptism.

2) John 3:5 is clear enough - and the fathers of the Church interprets is as: ... By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words.




Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - James02 - 07-07-2011

Quote: So, we are agreed: Outside the visible structure of the church there is no salvation.

This may be where I disagree with the Feeney position.  A prot child, validly baptized, who dies before the age of reason, goes to heaven.  I am more "mechanistic" in my views.

I personally believe the child would die a Catholic in that situation.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 07-07-2011

(07-07-2011, 01:03 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: So, we are agreed: Outside the visible structure of the church there is no salvation.

This may be where I disagree with the Feeney position.  A prot child, validly baptized, who dies before the age of reason, goes to heaven.  I am more "mechanistic" in my views.

I personally believe the child would die a Catholic in that situation.

Fr. Feeney believed the Church taught the same thing as you.....................But this world, as far as men go, need not be a failure! Everybody could know about the Catholic Faith! There is not a city in the United States where you could not find it. Little babies could not find it, I grant you, but little Protestant babies who die before they reach the age of reason are saved. Baptism made them Catholics. That is very sweet, is it not? There is only one Baptism. And every baptized baby is a subject of our Holy Father the Pope. (When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!) But you are not babies, and I am not talking to you as babies. I am talking to you as grown-ups, with Christian responsibilities for fulfilling all Christ's
commandments, once you have heard them.
- Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life, Chapter 1



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 07-07-2011

(07-07-2011, 01:14 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(07-07-2011, 01:03 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: So, we are agreed: Outside the visible structure of the church there is no salvation.

This may be where I disagree with the Feeney position.  A prot child, validly baptized, who dies before the age of reason, goes to heaven.  I am more "mechanistic" in my views.

I personally believe the child would die a Catholic in that situation.

Fr. Feeney believed the Church taught the same thing as you.....................But this world, as far as men go, need not be a failure! Everybody could know about the Catholic Faith! There is not a city in the United States where you could not find it. Little babies could not find it, I grant you, but little Protestant babies who die before they reach the age of reason are saved. Baptism made them Catholics. That is very sweet, is it not? There is only one Baptism. And every baptized baby is a subject of our Holy Father the Pope. (When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!) But you are not babies, and I am not talking to you as babies. I am talking to you as grown-ups, with Christian responsibilities for fulfilling all Christ's
commandments, once you have heard them.
- Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life, Chapter 1

Amen!