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Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-09-2011

Desiring to receive those things disposes one to be justified, but is not the instrumental cause of Justification. Read session 6 of the Council of Trent, clear as Crystal: Disposition is not justification.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-09-2011

(05-09-2011, 08:29 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Desiring to receive those things disposes one to be justified, but is not the instrumental cause of Justification. Read session 6 of the Council of Trent, clear as Crystal: Disposition is not justification.

Whatever.  The important thing is to keep the Catholic Faith as handed down by Pope Piuys XII.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-09-2011

Whatever? We are talking about truths of the faith. And since you don't seem interesting in reading it, I will show you:
Council of Trent, Session 6:

CHAPTER VI.
The manner of Preparation.
Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, [Page 34] to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified

BOD is not justification: It is being disposed toward justice by faith which produces Charity- But it does not Justify. The SINGLE instrumental cause of Justification is Baptism.

And Pius XII Clearly Teaches in Mystici Corporis Christi That it is ONLY through Baptism that we are made member of the Church. And guess what? Only Members of the Church can be saved:

"Pope Eugene IV ( A.D. 1441 ) " The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and proclaims
that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and
schismatic's cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart " into everlasting fire which was
prepared for the devil and his angels" ( Matt. 25:21), unless before the end of life the same has been
added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those
remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fasting's, almsgiving,
and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no
one
, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can
be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church
.

                                                                  " Cantata Domino" Council of Florence

That's The teaching of the Catholic Church. I love it!  ;D


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-10-2011

Blessed be the Council of Trent!  Blessed be the Council of Florence!

Yes! ... but you forgot to add what Pope Pius IX said about those in invincible ignorance.  Include that in your citation of texts, if you please.



Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Stubborn - 05-10-2011

(05-10-2011, 03:02 AM)wulfrano Wrote: Blessed be the Council of Trent!  Blessed be the Council of Florence!

Yes! ... but you forgot to add what Pope Pius IX said about those in invincible ignorance.  Include that in your citation of texts, if you please.

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. - Pope Pius IX

Note that the pope does not grant the invincible ignorant person salvation.







Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-10-2011

I generally withhold judement on this passage,not because I think it contradicts my view (Which I hold to be the Church's view, not mine), but because Bl. Pope Pius IX is simply wrong at the last part: God's goodness does not allow those who are not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments? That is not what the Church teaches:

"All those who die in Mortal Sin, or in original sin alone, descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments."
-Council of Florence_

This is a dogma of the Faith.

Now, if what the Pope means in context is that God is not going to allow anyone to be punished who does not deserve it, then yeah, I agree with that. But I simply contend that all deserve it for:

a. Being born in original sin, which alienates us from God, the sole remedy of which is sacramental water baptism, none deserve to see God
b. There is no unregenerate man who does not sin mortally.
c. Sin is not remitted to the unbaptized.
d. The desire for baptism is a preparative disposition for receiving justification, it is NOT its instrumental cause, The Ecumenical COuncil of Trent bearing witness.
e. This document of the Pope is not infallible, nor is it part of the ordinary magisterium, as far as I know.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-10-2011

@ Stubborn.

Quote: "Note that the pope does not grant the invincible ignorant person salvation."

Of course not!  He is just saying that those in invincible ignorance will not be damned for their ignorance as long as it is not wilful.




Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-10-2011

Almighty Merciful God will never punish anyone unless he or she deserves it!
If you die in a state of mortal sin you go to hell.
If you die in a state of grace with venial sins or forgiven mortal sins you go to Purgatory.
If you die in a state of grace without mortal or venial sins you go to Heaven.
If you die in a state of no mortal sins and no venial sins but with original sin only, you go to Limbo.


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - Gregory I - 05-10-2011

What does the Dogma SAY wulfrano?


Re: Another EENS, please be patient... - wulfrano - 05-10-2011

(05-10-2011, 09:57 PM)Gregory I Wrote: What does the Dogma SAY wulfrano?

You tell me.