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Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Printable Version

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Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Norbert - 05-23-2011

(05-23-2011, 10:40 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(05-23-2011, 10:13 PM)Norbert Wrote: It should be pointed out that the Church has approved veneration of JPII himself...

We don't have to like it.  But we have to understand and respect the power allowing it.  And we can pray for a suppression of the cult by the properly appointed authority or anything else on the list (suppression of the charismatic movement, communion in the hand, the Novus Ordo and all post-conciliar sacramental revisions, the Luminous Mysteries. etc. ) 

JPII was such a damaging agent to the Church, no matter what his personal sanctity, it's possible that Fr. Amorth is being decieved by the very demons he's trying to exorcise.   I wouldn't choose JPII, I would pick St. Pius X or St. Gregory or St. Michael the Archangel but I'm not the exorcist. 

On the other hand, it could be that God has used JPII's flaws in an essential ingredient for the restoration of the Church and the demon could know that.  Again, it's the exorcist's call.

Hmmmmmmmm.  Fair enough.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Dominus est - 05-23-2011

I don't get it. How can demanding proof of supernatural matters be reconciled with a religion based on faith ?


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Cetil - 05-23-2011

(05-19-2011, 11:54 PM)PeterII Wrote: If all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out, then there must be some extraordinary evidence to show that unnatural actions are taking place.  What or where is it?  Can't we produce something on tape?  I've seen nothing yet that can't be naturally explained. 

The same goes for modern day "miraculous" healings. Why is it always internal stuff instead of something tangible like the miracle at Lanciano? 

[/quote]


The Church has no need to prove a given subject is possessed to anyone. The Church follows its procedures in the interest of relieving the person of a demon. And DUH! the person suffering such an affliction is entitled to PRIVACY! That should have occurred to you.
As to miraculous healings of "internal stuff", this is tangibly proven through multiple medical checking (and I really don't care if it satisfies you or not). For example, Dr. Jacalyn Duffin, an atheist doctor certified a miracle for the Vatican in the case of Brother Andre who is now canonized. This is a very interesting interview with her:
" Dr. Jacalyn Duffin may know more about these heavenly healings than anyone in Canada, which is set to garner its second native-born saint when Quebec’s Brother André is canonized by the Vatican this weekend.

Duffin — whose 2009 book, Medical Miracles: Doctors, Saints and Healing in the Modern World looked at 1,400 saint-making miracles over 400 years — was instrumental in the canonization of Canada’s first saint, Marie-Marguerite d'Youville, two decades ago.

“A lot of my medical colleagues think I’m nuts to do this research because they think it’s all hocus-pocus,” says Duffin, who teaches the history of science at Queen’s University. “They think it’s the power of suggestion, or that people are actively duping the church.”

Her research and personal involvement in the canonization process, however, has led Duffin to believe something more profound is at play."

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/874255--medical-miracles-a-must-for-saints

C.



Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Pilgrim_here - 05-24-2011

Coming to this thread late, but man this is depressing.  I have huge respect for Father Amorth - and not just because he's one of the few priests I know who actually openly says that Hell exists!!

But, seriously, why oh why would he even think of asking for the intercession of the previous Pontiff?  Surely fear of justifying the modernists' post-conciliar reformation in the church would weigh heavily against such an action?

Are we sure that CNA aren't misquoting or something?

Or perhaps it's just like an earlier poster said - why believe anything a demon says? 

This has so totally depressed me today - I thought people like Fr Amorth were fighting against modernism.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Gerard - 05-24-2011

Fr. Malachi Martin's description of a typical exorcist helps explain it.  Exorcists are generally, not poetically minded, they are more like engineers and not dazzled easily.  Fr. Amorth has supported a few squirrely things before like much of the charismatic movement.  He doesn't  pay attention to in depth theology (probably because he's very busy)  But his gift is exorcism, he probably can't be confused by demons with modernism and his will and faith are extremely strong.  He could be very wrong about a number of things and still kick demonic tail night and day.  That's why Christ enables non-Catholics to also be able to cast out demons.  (the ones that really do it, not the charletons) 


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - PeterII - 05-24-2011

(05-23-2011, 11:47 PM)Cetil Wrote:
(05-19-2011, 11:54 PM)PeterII Wrote: If all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out, then there must be some extraordinary evidence to show that unnatural actions are taking place.  What or where is it?  Can't we produce something on tape?  I've seen nothing yet that can't be naturally explained. 

The same goes for modern day "miraculous" healings. Why is it always internal stuff instead of something tangible like the miracle at Lanciano? 



The Church has no need to prove a given subject is possessed to anyone. The Church follows its procedures in the interest of relieving the person of a demon. And DUH! the person suffering such an affliction is entitled to PRIVACY! That should have occurred to you.
As to miraculous healings of "internal stuff", this is tangibly proven through multiple medical checking (and I really don't care if it satisfies you or not). For example, Dr. Jacalyn Duffin, an atheist doctor certified a miracle for the Vatican in the case of Brother Andre who is now canonized. This is a very interesting interview with her:
" Dr. Jacalyn Duffin may know more about these heavenly healings than anyone in Canada, which is set to garner its second native-born saint when Quebec’s Brother André is canonized by the Vatican this weekend.

Duffin — whose 2009 book, Medical Miracles: Doctors, Saints and Healing in the Modern World looked at 1,400 saint-making miracles over 400 years — was instrumental in the canonization of Canada’s first saint, Marie-Marguerite d'Youville, two decades ago.

“A lot of my medical colleagues think I’m nuts to do this research because they think it’s all hocus-pocus,” says Duffin, who teaches the history of science at Queen’s University. “They think it’s the power of suggestion, or that people are actively duping the church.”

Her research and personal involvement in the canonization process, however, has led Duffin to believe something more profound is at play."

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/874255--medical-miracles-a-must-for-saints

C.

The Church needs to prove it to itself so that it isn't tricked by charlatans.  We can also see the evidence while preserving anonymity.

Dr. Duffin notes:
Quote:Even with the testimony, however, Duffin says the church plays devil’s advocate – the term comes from the process – sending out clerical investigators and doctors – the consulta medica — to try and disprove the purported cure.


Was this done for JP II?


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Pilgrim_here - 05-25-2011

(05-24-2011, 10:43 PM)PeterII Wrote:
(05-23-2011, 11:47 PM)Cetil Wrote:
(05-19-2011, 11:54 PM)PeterII Wrote: If all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out, then there must be some extraordinary evidence to show that unnatural actions are taking place.  What or where is it?  Can't we produce something on tape?  I've seen nothing yet that can't be naturally explained. 

The same goes for modern day "miraculous" healings. Why is it always internal stuff instead of something tangible like the miracle at Lanciano? 



The Church has no need to prove a given subject is possessed to anyone. The Church follows its procedures in the interest of relieving the person of a demon. And DUH! the person suffering such an affliction is entitled to PRIVACY! That should have occurred to you.
As to miraculous healings of "internal stuff", this is tangibly proven through multiple medical checking (and I really don't care if it satisfies you or not). For example, Dr. Jacalyn Duffin, an atheist doctor certified a miracle for the Vatican in the case of Brother Andre who is now canonized. This is a very interesting interview with her:
" Dr. Jacalyn Duffin may know more about these heavenly healings than anyone in Canada, which is set to garner its second native-born saint when Quebec’s Brother André is canonized by the Vatican this weekend.

Duffin — whose 2009 book, Medical Miracles: Doctors, Saints and Healing in the Modern World looked at 1,400 saint-making miracles over 400 years — was instrumental in the canonization of Canada’s first saint, Marie-Marguerite d'Youville, two decades ago.

“A lot of my medical colleagues think I’m nuts to do this research because they think it’s all hocus-pocus,” says Duffin, who teaches the history of science at Queen’s University. “They think it’s the power of suggestion, or that people are actively duping the church.”

Her research and personal involvement in the canonization process, however, has led Duffin to believe something more profound is at play."

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/874255--medical-miracles-a-must-for-saints

C.

The Church needs to prove it to itself so that it isn't tricked by charlatans.  We can also see the evidence while preserving anonymity.

Dr. Duffin notes:
Quote:Even with the testimony, however, Duffin says the church plays devil’s advocate – the term comes from the process – sending out clerical investigators and doctors – the consulta medica — to try and disprove the purported cure.


Was this done for JP II?

No.  Because JPII abolished the requirement for the devil's advocate.



Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Mhoram - 05-25-2011

At least in theory, the investigators still investigate all the evidence, positive and negative.  What Pope John Paul II eliminated was the office of Promoter of the Faith (Devil's Advocate), which specifically hunted for the negative stuff while a separate team (Promoter of the Cause) investigated the positives.  Presumably, dividing the job like that kept the investigators from making their own judgment partly through the investigation and letting that cloud their results.  If all you're looking for is evidence "for" sainthood, and you have no idea what the "against" team has come up with (or vice versa), it's going to be harder for you to start feeling like you know the whole story and perhaps should massage the evidence to lean your results one way or the other.

But hey, the office had only been around for 400 years, so it's not like it was a long-standing tradition like the High Five of Peace or anything.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Pilgrim_here - 05-26-2011

(05-24-2011, 09:44 PM)Gerard Wrote: Fr. Malachi Martin's description of a typical exorcist helps explain it.  Exorcists are generally, not poetically minded, they are more like engineers and not dazzled easily.  Fr. Amorth has supported a few squirrely things before like much of the charismatic movement.  He doesn't  pay attention to in depth theology (probably because he's very busy)  But his gift is exorcism, he probably can't be confused by demons with modernism and his will and faith are extremely strong.  He could be very wrong about a number of things and still kick demonic tail night and day.  That's why Christ enables non-Catholics to also be able to cast out demons.  (the ones that really do it, not the charletons) 

thanks - this is interesting.  where can i learn more about these personality types please?


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Gerard - 05-26-2011

(05-26-2011, 04:26 PM)Pilgrim_here Wrote:
(05-24-2011, 09:44 PM)Gerard Wrote: Fr. Malachi Martin's description of a typical exorcist helps explain it.  Exorcists are generally, not poetically minded, they are more like engineers and not dazzled easily.  Fr. Amorth has supported a few squirrely things before like much of the charismatic movement.  He doesn't  pay attention to in depth theology (probably because he's very busy)  But his gift is exorcism, he probably can't be confused by demons with modernism and his will and faith are extremely strong.  He could be very wrong about a number of things and still kick demonic tail night and day.  That's why Christ enables non-Catholics to also be able to cast out demons.  (the ones that really do it, not the charletons) 

thanks - this is interesting.  where can i learn more about these personality types please?

Fr. Martin's interview series with Bernard Janzen "Kingdom of Darkness",  his book Hostage to the Devil and his first and second guest appearances on the Art Bell show were all on the topic of possession and exorcism as well as related subjects.