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Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Printable Version

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Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Gerard - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 12:48 PM)PeterII Wrote: My point is that people are being superstitious. 

oh.. because you say so..  What's the difference between invoking the intercession of a saint and a superstition?  Or do you doubt the whole existence of the preternatural or the supernatural? 

Quote:  Fr. Amorth has to justify his appointment,  and Fr. Malachi Martin was selling books. 

Yes, of course, they are all scum. If Fr. Amorth weren't an exorcist, you'd probably cite the fact that he has no credibility or authority in these matters because he's not an exorcist.  And Fr. Martin can't write the truth about anything he actually knows because he has to sell books as if all writers have to lie to convince people. (Did the evangelists have to lie to make the Gospel more palatable to the people? )   


Quote: There ought to be evidence of extraordinary phenomena to show that we're not just dealing with crazy people here.

2nd attempt.  What do you quantify as evidence and are you saying that a lack of documentable extraordinary phenomena means no preternatural influence?

Quote: "JP II is a powerful intercessor because the devil told me so" doesn't cut it.  This is the Novus Ordo irrationally propogating the cult of JP II. 

That's a possibility but not a fact.  Do you believe JPII is in Hell?  I don't have confidence in JPII's papacy or personality but he may still have wound up in heaven and maybe God is allowing him to do some good that he may have wanted to but couldn't in his earthly life. 




Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Mhoram - 05-19-2011

(05-18-2011, 10:44 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(05-18-2011, 06:55 AM)Mhoram Wrote: If a pope, knowing that death is approaching, surrounded by priests and with millions of people praying for him daily, can't make that system work for himself, something is seriously wrong.

That's not a given.

The "system" is not to be blamed if a person dies in impenitence.

I think I was unclear; I didn't mean to blame the "system" at all.  I was just saying that if he were penitent for whatever sins he committed, a pope in ill health with death approaching has every opportunity to clear the slate and skip past Purgatory.  If he didn't do so, the fault would be with him, not with the system.  (For that matter, we don't really know how time works in Purgatory, right?  Couldn't he have gone there with 1000 "years" to work off, and had it wiped out in a few months (real-time) by millions of prayers -- or even one plenary indulgence -- offered on his behalf?)  So it doesn't seem shocking to me that a pope -- even one with a lot to answer for -- could get to heaven in a hurry, especially when his health was failing predictably over a long stretch of time and he had plenty of time to examine his conscience and rethink things.

I tend to see John Paul II as the character Fr. Martin wrote about in Windswept House.  A very pious man who loved God and cared about people, but who was convinced that the Church's connection to the past was irretrievably broken, so it was necessary to forge ahead and create something new out of the mess.  A man who focused too much on worldly, political solutions to humanity's problems, because political force and diplomacy (seemed to have) defeated the two great evils of his time, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.  A man who just couldn't bring himself to believe how bad things were out in the hinterlands (like with the homosexual abuse problem in the US) or how corrupt many of his personnel were, so he never took the necessary steps to cut them out of the loop and find out what was going on for himself.  A man who was waiting for a sign from heaven to tell him which way to steer the Church, but it never came, so he wound up just trying to maintain the status quo and keep his options open (for example, his episcopal appointments covering the full range from liberal to orthodox).  Most of all, a man who agonized deeply about the decisions of his papacy, fearing that he made the wrong choices and failed in his duty.

Given that characterization, I guess it's not hard for me to believe that, on his deathbed, he could have realized the sign was never coming, and been truly penitent about many things he had agonized about.  At least, I'm not willing to say it's unlikely.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Vetus Ordo - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 04:05 PM)Mhoram Wrote: Given that characterization, I guess it's not hard for me to believe that, on his deathbed, he could have realized the sign was never coming, and been truly penitent about many things he had agonized about.  At least, I'm not willing to say it's unlikely.

The key words here being "given that characterization," which I find to be extremely simplistic and flattering.




Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Mhoram - 05-19-2011

Flattering, maybe, but I don't see how it's simplistic.  The usual theories are far more simplistic: the one side says he was a saint, and if mistakes were made, he didn't know about them, and everything good for tradition that's happened since his time was thanks to events he secretly set in motion.  The other side seems to think he was a committed modernist devoted to destroying the Church's remaining ties to tradition from the inside.

Fr. Martin's take is the only one I've seen that doesn't portray him as a caricature of good or evil, but as a real man who, like most people, was honestly trying to do the right thing most of the time and sometimes got it very wrong.  It's the only theory I've seen that tries to explain the contradictions, like why did he hold so firm on some issues (like abortion) where pressure from the rest of the world was greatest, while caving on others?  It comes from a priest who was close to the action and had a lot of inside information, and was certainly in a better position to formulate a theory than I am.  It may not be completely accurate, but it's more compelling than the caricatures.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Bakuryokuso - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 10:05 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Those traditionalists who do equate "neo-Cath" with "protestant" should know that many of us on this forum (myself included) were everything-is-great-about-JP2, neo-Catholic sorts at one point before we came to know more about tradition.  So that equation with protestantism will never fly with us, will actually prevent us from seeing your points clearly, because we know it is BS.  I was there, I went only to the NO, and I absolutely abhorred the idea of going to a Protestant service, despite superficial similarities with Lutherans or whatever I knew the serious differences.

Yeah, I was a very committed Evangelical. I converted to Catholicism thru the NO/RCIA/LOTH utterly ignorant of the ongoing existence of Tradition. And I definitely had the impression that i had something to convert to. Protestantism and Catholicism are utterly different, and this was made abundantly clear during the RCIA course I did. if you think the NO is defective in relation to the TLM, Protestant services are even poorer, by magnitudes of degrees.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Gerard - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 05:13 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: Yeah, I was a very committed Evangelical. I converted to Catholicism thru the NO/RCIA/LOTH utterly ignorant of the ongoing existence of Tradition. And I definitely had the impression that i had something to convert to. Protestantism and Catholicism are utterly different, and this was made abundantly clear during the RCIA course I did. if you think the NO is defective in relation to the TLM, Protestant services are even poorer, by magnitudes of degrees.

I think the heat concerning the Novus Ordo part of the Church comes from the perspective of seeing how many people leave the Church because of it.  (More properly, the lack of catechesis that it tolerates provides opportunity for the ignorant to leave.)  Conversion rates were much higher and much clearer prior to the Council.  It's a weird, murky world, sort of a net dipole moment where the Novus Ordo system is part of the Catholic Church but attracts converts seeking the truth and they either stop there and think they have acheived a "fullness" of Christianity  or move more towards tradition and discover the necessity of being Catholic.   


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Cetil - 05-19-2011

Father Gabriel Amorth does not need to prove himself to anyone posting here. His credentials are well established as an exorcist with over 20 years of experience plus he was elected president of the International Association of Exorcists. No one here has credentials like that. Father Amorth studied under the tutelage of Father Candido Amantini who was the exorcist of Rome for 36 years. Amantini was a saintly man and well regarded by Padre Pio. Father Amantini thought highly of Father Amorth. Father Amorth never proceeds to assume anyone is truly possessed until all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out. Enough said.

C.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Vetus Ordo - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 07:56 PM)Cetil Wrote: Father Gabriel Amorth does not need to prove himself to anyone posting here. His credentials are well established as an exorcist with over 20 years of experience plus he was elected president of the International Association of Exorcists. No one here has credentials like that. Father Amorth studied under the tutelage of Father Candido Amantini who was the exorcist of Rome for 36 years. Amantini was a saintly man and well regarded by Padre Pio. Father Amantini thought highly of Father Amorth. Father Amorth never proceeds to assume anyone is truly possessed until all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out. Enough said.

Cecil locutus, causa finita?


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Cetil - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 07:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(05-19-2011, 07:56 PM)Cetil Wrote: Father Gabriel Amorth does not need to prove himself to anyone posting here. His credentials are well established as an exorcist with over 20 years of experience plus he was elected president of the International Association of Exorcists. No one here has credentials like that. Father Amorth studied under the tutelage of Father Candido Amantini who was the exorcist of Rome for 36 years. Amantini was a saintly man and well regarded by Padre Pio. Father Amantini thought highly of Father Amorth. Father Amorth never proceeds to assume anyone is truly possessed until all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out. Enough said.

Cecil locutus, causa finita?

I didn't say that. But the idea that anyone here can easily dismiss him is far fetched.

C.


Re: Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan. - Vetus Ordo - 05-19-2011

(05-19-2011, 08:02 PM)Cetil Wrote:
(05-19-2011, 07:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(05-19-2011, 07:56 PM)Cetil Wrote: Father Gabriel Amorth does not need to prove himself to anyone posting here. His credentials are well established as an exorcist with over 20 years of experience plus he was elected president of the International Association of Exorcists. No one here has credentials like that. Father Amorth studied under the tutelage of Father Candido Amantini who was the exorcist of Rome for 36 years. Amantini was a saintly man and well regarded by Padre Pio. Father Amantini thought highly of Father Amorth. Father Amorth never proceeds to assume anyone is truly possessed until all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out. Enough said.

Cecil locutus, causa finita?

I didn't say that. But the idea that anyone here can easily dismiss him is far fetched.

The only thing I object about this whole story is believing what a demon says.

I don't dispute Fr. Amorth's credentials. I have a huge deal of respect for him, as I said before.