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3 Natures in Christ - UnamSanctam - 07-19-2011

I am confused as to how we draw the concept of two natures in Christ. For when we describe man, we say he has to natures, soul and body, that are one person. But as Christ is Divine and Man, should he not then consist of the Divine Nature as well as natures of the human soul and body as proper to man? Hence he would have three natures.

Thank you.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Aenigmata in Tenebris - 07-19-2011

(07-19-2011, 01:57 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: For when we describe man, we say he has to natures, soul and body, that are one person.

Thank you.

I think that this is where the confusion lies. It is most accurate to describe man as having one nature (human) composed of body and soul.

Reference:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm

Also read up on the first two General Councils of the Church - they dealt conclusively with your question.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Walty - 07-19-2011

Yes, what it means to be a man is to have on nature which is distinguished by being both soul and body, while angelic nature is to be purely created spirit, and beastly or animal nature is to be purely material.




Re: 3 Natures in Christ - UnamSanctam - 07-21-2011

So then it is an issue with etymology ? Christ has 2 natures, human and Divine. Christ has 3 substances, human soul, human body, and Divine. Or do we say that Christ is two substances? That is, spirit and flesh, though the spirit consists of 2 natures divine and human.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - SouthpawLink - 07-21-2011

(07-21-2011, 08:16 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: So then it is an issue with etymology ? Christ has 2 natures, human and Divine. Christ has 3 substances, human soul, human body, and Divine. Or do we say that Christ is two substances? That is, spirit and flesh, though the spirit consists of 2 natures divine and human.

Yes, I think it's a problem of etymology.

We might say that there two substances in Christ, one being God and one being man.  For "substance" is used as a synonym for "nature" (cf. CCC, n. 252).  Both soul and body make up the one substance of man.  Philosophically speaking, the soul is the "form" of the body, while the body itself is "matter."*  Their composite (union of matter and form) makes up the one substance of man (generally speaking, although the soul can exist separately from the body;  the body, however, cannot be called a substance in its own right).

Here's the Catholic Encyclopedia article on man: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm

* "Whoever shall obstinately presume in turn to assert, define, or hold that the rational or intellective soul is not the form of the human body in itself and essentially must be regarded as a heretic" (Council of Vienne, De Summa Trinitate et fide catholica, A.D. 1311; Denz. 481).  http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma5.php (see also Denz. 738 )


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - UnamSanctam - 07-22-2011

(07-21-2011, 10:42 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 08:16 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: So then it is an issue with etymology ? Christ has 2 natures, human and Divine. Christ has 3 substances, human soul, human body, and Divine. Or do we say that Christ is two substances? That is, spirit and flesh, though the spirit consists of 2 natures divine and human.

Yes, I think it's a problem of etymology.

We might say that there two substances in Christ, one being God and one being man.  For "substance" is used as a synonym for "nature" (cf. CCC, n. 252).  Both soul and body make up the one substance of man.  Philosophically speaking, the soul is the "form" of the body, while the body itself is "matter."*  Their composite (union of matter and form) makes up the one substance of man (generally speaking, although the soul can exist separately from the body;  the body, however, cannot be called a substance in its own right).

Here's the Catholic Encyclopedia article on man: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm

* "Whoever shall obstinately presume in turn to assert, define, or hold that the rational or intellective soul is not the form of the human body in itself and essentially must be regarded as a heretic" (Council of Vienne, De Summa Trinitate et fide catholica, A.D. 1311; Denz. 481).  http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma5.php (see also Denz. 738 )

I see. Thank you.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Gregory I - 07-22-2011

The two natures of Humanity, Flesh and Spirit, exist in a hypostatic union; That is, when they come together, we do not conceive of the flesh alone, or the Spirit alone, we conceive of Man, who is by DEFINITION spirit and flesh. THey are a single being: Man.

Similarly, as taught by St. Cyril of Alexandria and at Ephesus, when The Word took to Himself the Humanity, he made it one with his divinity without commingling or division, confusion or separation. So, after the union of the Word and the Humanity, we no longer think of Christ as "two" but as one Being; The Incarnate Word of God. Christ was One in his Being, but the properties of Humanity and divinity were all intact without change. Nevertheless, we do not say "TWO" after the Union, as taught by St. Cyril of Alexandria, The Ultimate in Orthodox Christology, we say "One incarnate being." Or One nature of the word incarnate. Christ is one.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - UnamSanctam - 07-22-2011

(07-22-2011, 07:06 PM)Gregory I Wrote: The two natures of Humanity, Flesh and Spirit, exist in a hypostatic union; That is, when they come together, we do not conceive of the flesh alone, or the Spirit alone, we conceive of Man, who is by DEFINITION spirit and flesh. THey are a single being: Man.

Similarly, as taught by St. Cyril of Alexandria and at Ephesus, when The Word took to Himself the Humanity, he made it one with his divinity without commingling or division, confusion or separation. So, after the union of the Word and the Humanity, we no longer think of Christ as "two" but as one Being; The Incarnate Word of God. Christ was One in his Being, but the properties of Humanity and divinity were all intact without change. Nevertheless, we do not say "TWO" after the Union, as taught by St. Cyril of Alexandria, The Ultimate in Orthodox Christology, we say "One incarnate being." Or One nature of the word incarnate. Christ is one.

Yes He is one person, the hypostatic union of the Divine and Human natures. It is within the human natures of stating that there were to substances (spirit and flesh). As you say, the two become one Man, and hence we say He is two natures in Christ. The anathemas of illustrious St. Cyril do not forbid us to say there are two natures in Christ. They forbid us to say that these natures are separated or being borne in the person of Christ.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Gregory I - 07-22-2011

Yes, but Cyril PLAINLY taught that after the UNION of the two natures in one being, we no longer say "two." We speak of the One Christ, and we distinguish the activities of the natures in theory alone. THe union of the two nature was a real UNION. It is the Nature of a union to make two or more things ONE. SO when the Word took flesh of the Virgin, there was no longer GOd and Man, but God-made-man. If I could quote St. Cyril in his famous Treatise "On the Oneness of Christ."

Cyril is "A."

B. But if we say that the Nature of the Son is One, even though He be conceived of as Incarnate, all need is there to confess that confusion and commixture take place 21, |266 the nature of man being lost as it were within Him. For what is the nature of man unto the excellency of Godhead?

A. In highest degree, my friend, is he an idle talker who says that confusion and commixture have place, if one Nature of the Son Incarnate and made man, is confessed by us: for one will not be able to make proof thereof by needful and true deductions. But if they set their own. will as a law to us, they devised a counsel which they cannot establish, for we must give heed, not to them but to the God-inspired Scripture: if they think that needs, on account of the nature of man being nothing compared to the Divine Excellency, must it be lost and consumed as they say, we again will say, Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God: for it were not impossible for God Who loves man to make Himself endurable to the measures of the manhood. And this He foresignified to us darkly, when initiating Moses and limning the mode of the Incarnation as yet in types, for He came in likeness of fire on the bush in the wilderness, and the fire kept playing on the shrub yet was it not consumed. And Moses marvelled at the sight. Yet how is not a tree a thing that has no alliance with fire? and how is the readily consumed wood patient of the onslaught of flame? But this matter was (as I said) a type of a mystery, which exhibited endurable to the measures of the human nature, the Divine Nature of the Word 22, at His Will, for to Him is nothing impossible.

B. Know well that they will not choose so to think.

A.  Their speech will be caught setting forth to us most undoubtedly two sons and two christs.

B.  Not two: they say that the Son by Nature, the Word from forth God the Father is One; he that is assumed is |267 a man by nature son of David 23, but is son of God by reason of his having been assumed by God the Word, and that by reason of God the Word dwelling in him hath ho come to this dignity and hath by grace the sonship.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Doce Me - 07-23-2011

(07-22-2011, 09:51 PM)Gregory I Wrote: ... after the UNION of the two natures in one being, we no longer say "two." We speak of the One Christ, and we distinguish the activities of the natures in theory alone. THe union of the two nature was a real UNION. It is the Nature of a union to make two or more things ONE. SO when the Word took flesh of the Virgin, there was no longer GOd and Man, but God-made-man

Christ has two natures - this is not theoretical, but what the Church teaches.  Christ is truly God, and truly man, truly Divine and truly human. These natures are two, although they are united inseparably  in one Person by the hypostatic union.  (Union makes two things one in some way, but not always in every way - 3 Persons in One God;  man and wife as one flesh)

"Pope Benedict XIV,  DNZ 1463" Wrote:...the one and same Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, was perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, true God and true man consisting of rational soul and body, consubstantial with the Father in regard to His divinity, and consubstantial with us in regard to His humanity, in all things similar to us, without sin; that before time He was born of the Father according to divinity, but that in these latter days the same One, for us and for our salvation, was born of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, according to humanity, and that the one same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten must be recognized in the two natures without confusion, immutably, indivisibly, inseparably, never removing the difference of the natures because of their union, and preserving the peculiar character of each nature joined in one Person and substance; that this same Lord is not separated and divided into two persons, but is one and the same Son and Only-begotten God, the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ: likewise that the divinity of our same Lord Jesus Christ, according to which He is consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, is impassible and immortal; moreover, the same Lord was crucified and died only in the flesh, as was also defined in the said Synod and in the letter of St. Leo, the Roman Pontiff [cf. n.143 f.], by whose mouth, the Fathers in the same Synod declared that Blessed Peter the Apostle spoke, and by this definition there is condemned also that impious heresy of those who, when the Trisagion transmitted by the angels was being sung in the aforementioned Synod of Chalcedon: "Holy God, strong God, immortal God, have mercy on us," added these words: "Who was crucified for us," and thereby asserted that the divine nature of the three Persons was passible and mortal.