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3 Natures in Christ - Printable Version

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Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Walty - 08-01-2011

(08-01-2011, 01:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:52 PM)Walty Wrote: Body and soul/spirit are not natures but substances.  It is the nature of God and the angels to have one spiritual substance.  It is the nature of plants and animals to have one bodily or physical substance.  And the nature of humanity is to be the kiss of the substances of body and soul.

So you are agreeing that we could say that Christ has three substances, two natures, and one person?

I wouldn't say three substances, but still two.  There is only body and soul, matter and spirit.  Yes, He had both the spirit of a man and the divine spirit, but these are ultimately two kinds of the same substance, which is why our human souls are eternal.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - wulfrano - 08-01-2011

(08-01-2011, 01:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:52 PM)Walty Wrote: Body and soul/spirit are not natures but substances.  It is the nature of God and the angels to have one spiritual substance.  It is the nature of plants and animals to have one bodily or physical substance.  And the nature of humanity is to be the kiss of the substances of body and soul.

So you are agreeing that we could say that Christ has three substances, two natures, and one person?

Christ is One Person with two natures, one divine, one human.  Can't you understand that?


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Gregory I - 08-01-2011

The natures have come into an hypostatic union so that after the union of NAtures in Christ, there is only incarnate Divine Being, "Christ" the Word incarnate. St. Cyril bearing witness.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - wulfrano - 08-01-2011

(08-01-2011, 07:26 PM)Gregory I Wrote: The natures have come into an hypostatic union so that after the union of NAtures in Christ, there is only incarnate Divine Being, "Christ" the Word incarnate. St. Cyril bearing witness.


This.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Gregory I - 08-01-2011

THANKS! ;D


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - UnamSanctam - 08-02-2011

(08-01-2011, 02:18 PM)Walty Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:52 PM)Walty Wrote: Body and soul/spirit are not natures but substances.  It is the nature of God and the angels to have one spiritual substance.  It is the nature of plants and animals to have one bodily or physical substance.  And the nature of humanity is to be the kiss of the substances of body and soul.

So you are agreeing that we could say that Christ has three substances, two natures, and one person?

I wouldn't say three substances, but still two.  There is only body and soul, matter and spirit.  Yes, He had both the spirit of a man and the divine spirit, but these are ultimately two kinds of the same substance, which is why our human souls are eternal.

So the Divine Spirit is the same substance as the Human Spirit.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Walty - 08-02-2011

(08-02-2011, 12:11 AM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 02:18 PM)Walty Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:52 PM)Walty Wrote: Body and soul/spirit are not natures but substances.  It is the nature of God and the angels to have one spiritual substance.  It is the nature of plants and animals to have one bodily or physical substance.  And the nature of humanity is to be the kiss of the substances of body and soul.

So you are agreeing that we could say that Christ has three substances, two natures, and one person?

I wouldn't say three substances, but still two.  There is only body and soul, matter and spirit.  Yes, He had both the spirit of a man and the divine spirit, but these are ultimately two kinds of the same substance, which is why our human souls are eternal.

So the Divine Spirit is the same substance as the Human Spirit.

In a sense, yes.  They both are spirit in substance, just as salt water and fresh water are both still water.  Also, the human spirit has as its source the divine spirit.


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - UnamSanctam - 08-02-2011

(08-01-2011, 06:54 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:52 PM)Walty Wrote: Body and soul/spirit are not natures but substances.  It is the nature of God and the angels to have one spiritual substance.  It is the nature of plants and animals to have one bodily or physical substance.  And the nature of humanity is to be the kiss of the substances of body and soul.

So you are agreeing that we could say that Christ has three substances, two natures, and one person?

Christ is One Person with two natures, one divine, one human.  Can't you understand that?

Oh yes I understand that. Forget the title of the thread for a second; we have established that Christ has two natures in hypostatic (ὑπόστᾰσις) union of those natures (well actually St Cyril and the Fathers of Ephesus established that, lol) but now the question is stated as three substances. These substances are not to be confused with natures (i.e. the two natures human and divine) but the substances that make up the human nature. My issue is not with the substance of the divine nature, which is entirely spiritual, but the separate spiritual substance in the nature of man.

The answer is essentially contained by Thomas Aquinas:

Disregard the context of the objection, which is properly answered, in regard to the Eucharist. Note the Bolded term.

<<It seems that the whole Christ is not contained under this sacrament, because Christ begins to be in this sacrament by conversion of the bread and wine. But it is evident that the bread and wine cannot be changed either into the Godhead or into the soul of Christ. Since therefore Christ exists in three substances, namely, the Godhead, soul and body, as shown above (Question [2], Article [5]; Question [5], Articles [1],3), it seems that the entire Christ is not under this sacrament.>>


Q 2, A 5.

<<Objection 1: It would seem that in Christ there was no union of soul and body. For from the union of soul and body in us a person or a human hypostasis is caused. Hence if the soul and body were united in Christ, it follows that a hypostasis resulted from their union. But this was not the hypostasis of God the Word, for It is eternal. Therefore in Christ there would be a person or hypostasis besides the hypostasis of the Word, which is contrary to Articles [2],3.>>

<<Reply to Objection 1: This would seem to be the reason which was of weight with such as denied the union of the soul and body in Christ, viz. lest they should thereby be forced to admit a second person or hypostasis in Christ, since they saw that the union of soul and body in mere men resulted in a person. But this happens in mere men because the soul and body are so united in them as to exist by themselves. But in Christ they are united together, so as to be united to something higher, which subsists in the nature composed of them. And hence from the union of the soul and body in Christ a new hypostasis or person does not result, but what is composed of them is united to the already existing hypostasis or Person. Nor does it therefore follow that the union of the soul and body in Christ is of less effect than in us, for its union with something nobler does not lessen but increases its virtue and worth; just as the sensitive soul in animals constitutes the species, as being considered the ultimate form, yet it does not do so in man, although it is of greater effect and dignity, and this because of its union with a further and nobler perfection, viz. the rational soul, as has been said above>>


Re: 3 Natures in Christ - wulfrano - 08-02-2011

(08-02-2011, 12:17 AM)Walty Wrote:
(08-02-2011, 12:11 AM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 02:18 PM)Walty Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:58 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 01:52 PM)Walty Wrote: Body and soul/spirit are not natures but substances.  It is the nature of God and the angels to have one spiritual substance.  It is the nature of plants and animals to have one bodily or physical substance.  And the nature of humanity is to be the kiss of the substances of body and soul.

So you are agreeing that we could say that Christ has three substances, two natures, and one person?

I wouldn't say three substances, but still two.  There is only body and soul, matter and spirit.  Yes, He had both the spirit of a man and the divine spirit, but these are ultimately two kinds of the same substance, which is why our human souls are eternal.

So the Divine Spirit is the same substance as the Human Spirit.

In a sense, yes.  They both are spirit in substance, just as salt water and fresh water are both still water.  Also, the human spirit has as its source the divine spirit.

Quote:

"...the human spirit has as its source the divine spirit."

Dear Walty:
Sounds like Pantheism to me.



Re: 3 Natures in Christ - Gregory I - 08-02-2011

Sounds like ACTUALY monophysitism.

THe human spirit and the Holy Spirit are NOT the same substance; the Human spirit is created. THe Holy Spirit is uncreated. THerefore, the created, having no relation to the uncreated, is nOT of the same substance; for GOd did not make men from HIMSELF, but rather, he creates the soul immediately from nothing.