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Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Printable Version

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Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - jbcatholic - 08-18-2011

Can someone suggest any good books that speak on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"?  As a former protestant I am more an more trying to understand the role of this doctrine.  Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!

JB 


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Scriptorium - 08-18-2011

A key to understand is not that many of the modernists are quibbling about the doctrine of outside the church there is no salvation, because practically everyone accepts the teachings on invincible ignorance, and similar extraordinary circumstances (its in their favor as liberals), but rather it is the definition of the Church itself that is being toyed with to make more room for the separated. If these folks are actually in the Church, then there is no need to worry about defeating this dogma. A master stroke of the Devil.


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - jbcatholic - 08-18-2011

That is very true.  Do you have any good materials that would help me to gain a fuller understanding of this, and to understand how it has and is impacting the CC?  Thank you!
JB


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Doce Me - 08-18-2011

I recommend the book "The Catholic Church and Salvation" by Monsignor Joseph Clifford Fenton:

Monsignor Joseph Clifford Fenton (January 16, 1906 - July 7, 1969), a priest of the diocese of Springfield, Massachusetts, was professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America and editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review (1943–1963).[1] He is considered one of the most outstanding American Catholic theologians of the 20th century, serving as a peritus for Cardinal Ottaviani at the Second Vatican Council. He was also Secretary of the Catholic Theological Society of America.[2].  He was a defender of the Catholic Church against the errors of Vatican II.  (Cardinal Ottaviani wrote "the Ottaviani Intervention", a serious critique of the changes in the Novus Ordo mass.)


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Scriptorium - 08-18-2011

I would read Dominus Jesus also.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_lt.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - charlesh - 08-18-2011

Desire and Deception, by Charles Coulombe

I'm reading it now. I bought it thinking it was about culture and history, but it's all about EENS. It explains things very well and is very persuasive. Charles Coulombe is a clear thinker.


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - JoniCath - 08-18-2011

(08-18-2011, 02:52 PM)jbcatholic Wrote: Can someone suggest any good books that speak on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"?  As a former protestant I am more an more trying to understand the role of this doctrine.  Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!

JB 

I would just recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church #846. [size=10pt]And just in case someone jumps in & says that this is the liberal teaching of the post Vatican ll Church, it isn't. I was taught this while I was in Catholic elementary school in the '40's. I remember it well, as my Mother's side of the family were Methodists & it was a great relief to me to get an "official" answer that told me that they had a chance at heaven, too.  :) It is a teaching that has often been misunderstood: [/size] "To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

[b]847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: [/b]

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."





Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - charlesh - 08-18-2011

(08-18-2011, 02:52 PM)jbcatholic Wrote: Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!
The repudiation of the dogma of Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus began way before Vatican II. It was all over the Church in America in the late 19th century. You have to remember that the American Church was sick with Americanism and false ecumenism in the time of Leo XIII.


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - SouthpawLink - 08-18-2011

charlesh,
What's your opinion of the teaching of Bishop George Hay (The Sincere Christian) and Fr. Michael Muëller (The Catholic Dogma)?  Are you familiar with their work?

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecumenism/index.htm


Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Doce Me - 08-18-2011

Of course the EENS dogma itself was held from the beginning of Church history.

But there is a long dispute as to whether "baptism of desire" is compatible with this dogma. St. Thomas Aquinas taught clearly that it was.  There is overwhelming evidence that this is
the belief of the Church as well.  Of course any belief of the Church is disputed by some, and those who do dispute this one are often found in endlessly long threads
on fisheaters.

Father Leonard Feeney is one famous writer who disputed Baptism of Desire  (I believe Coulombe also did).  To see the evidence of his errors read "The Catholic Meaning of the Dogma 'Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation:  Is Feeneyism Catholic?" by Fr. Francois Laisney.  The Catholic Church and Salvation by Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton also presented an intelligent view of the Church's true doctrine on Salvation, including all that the Church has taught before Vatican II.

I will pray that you are wise when you study these matters.

I've been on long threads on this topic,  but I think I'll lay low this time.