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Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - jovan66102 - 09-11-2011

(09-11-2011, 10:08 PM)mikemac Wrote: Besides the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada (ACCC) there's also the Anglican Use Catholics in the States.  Apparently the Anglican Use Catholics are in communion with Rome but have been allowed to keep their own liturgy.

Not quite true, but HK, who attends an AU parish could give you more details than I can.

Quote:Father Gruner sent me the first part of a book called 'Russian Sunrise'.  'Russian Sunrise' is a fictional book by Bruce W Walters about a period prior to and after the consecration of Russia.  In the book it compares the Anglican Use Catholics in communion with Rome and keeping their liturgy with the Russian Orthodox coming into communion with Rome and keeping their Mass of Saint Justin Martyr.  Apparently the Mass of Saint Justin Martyr recognizes both the Immaculate Conception and the Filioque.  And apparently the Orthodox Churches haven't made the Immaculate Conception and the Filioque part of their dogma because they haven't been able to bring the nationalistic Orthodox Churches together for a council to declare the dogma without the supremacy of the See of Peter.  Chapter 23 has an excellent dialogue between Pope Nicholas (representing Pope Benedict) and Patriarch Filaret with Pope Nicholas recognizing the suicide of altering the Latin Liturgy (which prevented the Russian Orthodox from coming into communion with Rome as they kept their Slavonic Liturgy untouched) and Patriarch Filaret seeing the folly of nationalism and not recognizing the See of Peter.  The Russian Orthodox would be the 23rd Eastern Catholic Church in communion with Rome that have kept their own liturgy. 

I would love to read the book, but boy, is it fiction! There is no 'Mass of St Justin Martyr'. The Liturgies of the Byzantine East, whether Catholic or Orthodox are those of St John Chysostomos (my name Saint, Jovan Zlatoust in Serbian), St Basil the Great, St James and the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts of Pope St Gregory the Great.

As to the two Dogmas and the failure of the Orthodox to adopt them, the Filioque is a late addition to the Creed which the Orthodox will never recite even if they were to agree to the Western doctrine. The Immaculate Conception is much more complicated, tied up with differences between the East's and West's understanding of original sin , which I can't explain, because I don't understand it myself.

And the Orthodox deny the power of the Pope to call a Council. That is reserved to the Emperor which presents them with a problem since there has been no Emperor since 1453 (1917 if you're a 'Moscow is the Third Rome' man).


Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - jovan66102 - 09-11-2011

Oh, and Mike, I left out the fact that the Russian Orthodox would, in no way become a new Church which ';kept its Liturgy', they would simply become part of the Russian Catholic Church which already exists.


Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - mikemac - 09-12-2011

Pardon me, I may have added to the fiction myself Jovan by mistakenly calling it the Mass of St Justin Martyr instead of the Mass of St. John Chrysostom.  I wondered about that when I posted it but couldn't find it with a quick look threw the book.  The book refers to the nationalism of the Orthodox Churches as ceasarpolis or something like that.  It's a good book.  I'd like to hear what someone from an Orthodox Church or a convert from an Orthodox Church has to say about the book after reading it.


Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - devotedknuckles - 09-12-2011

ok jovan. well obviously having such a badass name as well as an eparchy.
sip
i think that lets some "things slide". the prods here or even these anglo whatever the hell they are welll
sip
ill leave it unsaid



Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - jovan66102 - 09-12-2011

(09-12-2011, 12:08 AM)mikemac Wrote: Pardon me, I may have added to the fiction myself Jovan by mistakenly calling it the Mass of St Justin Martyr instead of the Mass of St. John Chrysostom.  I wondered about that when I posted it but couldn't find it with a quick look threw the book.  The book refers to the nationalism of the Orthodox Churches as ceasarpolis or something like that.  It's a good book.  I'd like to hear what someone from an Orthodox Church or a convert from an Orthodox Church has to say about the book after reading it.

'Caesaropapism' is the word. The Lliturgy of St John Chrysotomos has never used the Filioque and as far as the Immaculate Conception, all Liturgies and devotions of the East refer to the Theotokos as 'All-Pure, Immaculate, etc.' but they still don't accept the Dogma.

***EDited to add***I'd love to read it  and write a short review.  I'll have to email Father and see if I can get it.



Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - mikemac - 09-12-2011

Yeah Caesaropapism, that's it.  The subtitle of 'Russian Sunrise' is 'A Novel of Faith and Hope' which it truly is, fiction or not, you know.  I'm sure you'd like the book Jovan.


Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - mikemac - 09-12-2011

Oh I forgot to tell you Jovan, it's also about the restoration of the Romanov Dynasty.  The fictional Doctor Mikhail Romanov is the only remaining heir from a male line of the Romanov family, a convert to Catholicism with his parents when he was 16.  He and his date Mariya (who just found out that she is of a European royal family to avoid a morganatic marriage) are well received at the annual Romanov Ball at the Waldorf=Astoria.  I figured you'd like the monarchy part of the book too.  I better not tell you any more so I don't wreck it for you.  :)


Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - devotedknuckles - 09-12-2011

is there still some romanaovs? like real deal ones?



Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - jovan66102 - 09-12-2011

(09-12-2011, 12:58 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: is there still some romanaovs? like real deal ones?

Oh, yeah! Lots and lots of them actually, enough that there's disagreement over who is the actual Head of the Imperial Family.


Re: Canadian Anglicans vote to unite with Rome - Someone1776 - 09-12-2011

(09-12-2011, 01:03 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(09-12-2011, 12:58 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: is there still some romanaovs? like real deal ones?

Oh, yeah! Lots and lots of them actually, enough that there's disagreement over who is the actual Head of the Imperial Family.

The true heir will be whichever claimant is the most incompetent.