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Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Printable Version

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Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - kingtheoden - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 07:46 PM)ggreg Wrote: Accepted.  It is hard to read the Gospels and not conclude that few are saved.  Does seem odd though, so many people being damned to Hell. 

I think this realization is the what led to the zeal of countless men and women in their dedicating their lives to (and often suffering intensely for) the salvation of people scattered across the world.

We can hope that somehow the maximum number are, somehow, saved.  We cannot presume as much and therefore it is upon us to do as our Lord commanded: Pick up our crosses and follow Him.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Vetus Ordo - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 07:46 PM)ggreg Wrote: Accepted.  It is hard to read the Gospels and not conclude that few are saved.  Does seem odd though, so many people being damned to Hell. 

It's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

"For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God." (Rom 3:23) All men are sinners who deserve hell. Salvation is an act of mercy on God's part.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - archdiocesan - 09-25-2011

Quote:It's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

Garrigou-Lagrange disagrees:
Quote:The number of the elect is known only by God. "The Lord knoweth who are His." The liturgy says that this number is known to Him alone. This is reaffirmed also by St. Thomas. The end of the world will come when the number of the elect is complete, when the succession of human generations has reached its goal.

This number in itself is very great: "I heard the number of them that were signed (of the servants of God), a hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.... After this, I saw a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and in the sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands."

If we count both angels and men, the number of the elect seems to be higher than that of the reprobate. Thus St. Thomas, because, according to the testimony of Scripture and tradition, most of the angels remained faithful. As regards angels, says St. Thomas, evil happens only in the minority of cases, because, since the angel has neither sense power nor passions, he does not run the risk of remaining satisfied with an inferior form of life.

When we speak of men exclusively, we do not know, first of all, if among the worlds scattered in space the earth is the only one that is habitable. But if we restrict our question to men on our planet, the number of the elect remains a matter of controversy.

Many Fathers and theologians incline to the smaller number of the elect, because it is said in Scripture: "Many are called, but few are chosen." Again: "Enter you in at the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction; and many there are who go in thereat; how narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life and few there are that find it." Still, these texts are not absolutely demonstrative. Thus, following many others, Pere Monsabre remarks: "If these words were intended for all places and for all times, then the opinion of the small number of the elect would triumph. But we are permitted to think that they are meant, directly, for the ungrateful time of our Savior's own preaching. When Jesus wishes us to think of the future, He speaks in another manner. Thus He says to His disciples: 'If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to Myself.' 'The gates of hell shall not prevail against (My Church).' And showing us the results of the last judgment, He says: 'The wicked shall go into everlasting punishment, but the just into life everlasting.' "

Monsabre continues: "Remark that He does not tell us definitely the number of the good and of the wicked. To those who demanded a clear pronouncement, He was content to reply: 'Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many . . . shall seek to enter and shall not be able.' The rigorists will tell me possibly that Jesus here hides the mystery of His justice, in order not to frighten timorous souls. As for myself, I prefer to think that He hides here the mystery of His mercy, that we may avoid presumption."

The common opinion of the Fathers and ancient theologians is without doubt that those who are saved do not represent the greater number. We may cite in favor of this view the following saints: Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory Nazianzen, Hilary, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Leo the Great, Bernard, Thomas Aquinas. Then, nearer to our own times: Molina, St. Robert Bellarmine, Suarez, Vasquez, Lessius, and St. Alphonsus. But they give this view as opinion, not as revealed truth, not as certain conclusion.

In the last century the contrary opinion, namely, of the greater number of the elect, was defended by Father Faber in England, by Monsignor Bougaud in France, by Father Castelein, S.J., in Belgium.

To conclude: some insist on the mercy of God, others on the justice of God. Neither one side nor the other gives us certitude. And the reasons of appropriateness which each invokes differ very much from the reasons of appropriateness invoked in favor of a dogma which is already certain by revelation, whereas here we are treating of a truth that is not certain.

Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church.

Restricting the question to Catholics, we find the doctrine, generally held especially since Suarez, that, if we consider merely adults, the number of the elect surpasses that of the reprobate. If adult Catholics do at one time or another sin mortally, nevertheless they can arise in the tribunal of penance, and there are relatively few who at the end of life do not repent, or even refuse to receive the sacraments.

But if we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution.

If the question is of the entire human race, the answer must remain uncertain, for the reasons given above. But even if, absolutely, the number of the elect is less great, the glory of God's government cannot suffer. Quality prevails over quantity. One elect soul is a spiritual universe; Further, no evil happens that is not permitted for a higher good. Further, among non-Christians (Jews, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jews and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of primitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even to pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God. These, as Pius IX says, can arrive at salvation. God never commands the impossible. To him who does what is in his power God does not refuse grace.

We cannot arrive at certitude in this question. It is better to acknowledge our ignorance than to discourage the faithful by a doctrine which is too rigid, to expose them to danger by a doctrine which is too superficial.

The important thing is to observe the commandments of God. St. Augustine said, and the Council of Trent repeats: "God never commands the impossible. But He warns us to do what we can, and to ask of Him the grace to accomplish what we of ourselves cannot do, and He aids us to fulfill what He commands."

Let us put our confidence in Jesus Christ, "the victim of propitiation for our sins," "the Lamb of God, . . . who taketh away the sin of the world." "Let us go with confidence to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace in seasonable aid."



Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Vetus Ordo - 09-25-2011

Garrigou-Lagrance himself admits that "the common opinion of the Fathers and ancient theologians is without doubt that those who are saved do not represent the greater number. We may cite in favor of this view the following saints: Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory Nazianzen, Hilary, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Leo the Great, Bernard, Thomas Aquinas. Then, nearer to our own times: Molina, St. Robert Bellarmine, Suarez, Vasquez, Lessius, and St. Alphonsus. But they give this view as opinion, not as revealed truth, not as certain conclusion."

I think I'm in good company.




Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - archdiocesan - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 08:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: It's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Wrote:But they give this view as opinion, not as revealed truth, not as certain conclusion.



Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Vetus Ordo - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 09:05 PM)archdiocesan Wrote:
(09-25-2011, 08:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: It's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Wrote:But they give this view as opinion, not as revealed truth, not as certain conclusion.

In my opinion, it's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

The arguments in favour of the number of the elect being greater than the number of the reprobate remain unconvincing.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Norbert - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 09:12 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(09-25-2011, 09:05 PM)archdiocesan Wrote:
(09-25-2011, 08:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: It's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Wrote:But they give this view as opinion, not as revealed truth, not as certain conclusion.

In my opinion, it's the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from divine revelation.

The arguments in favour of the number of the elect being greater than the number of the reprobate remain unconvincing.

I agree with Vetus.  especially as concerns the universalist theology of VII.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - archdiocesan - 09-25-2011

Vatican II is "universalist"? Any evidence for that?


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Norbert - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 09:41 PM)archdiocesan Wrote: Vatican II is "universalist"? Any evidence for that?

Read Nostra Aetate, (the above link), or for that matter any of the statements of the post VII popes on the Church and other faiths.  VII Catholicism isn't interested in hell.  No one needs to go there, no one deserves to go there, we don't need Christ to avoid it.  If you honestly can't see that in the documents of VII or the statements and actions of JPII, I dunno what you can.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - archdiocesan - 09-25-2011

Nostra Aetate can be accused of many things, but it is not universalist. If you're going to make sweeping claims, be capable of substantiating them. Your assertion that in the documents of Vatican II "we don't need Christ to avoid" Hell doesn't quite withstand scrutiny. Example:
Quote:Since no one can be saved who does not first believe, priests, as co-workers with their bishops, have the primary duty of proclaiming the Gospel of God to all. In this way they fulfill the command of the Lord: "Going therefore into the whole world preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mk 16:15), and they establish and build up the People of God. Through the saving word the spark of faith is lit in the hearts of unbelievers, and fed in the hearts of the faithful. This is the way that the congregation of faithful is started and grows, just as the Apostle describes: "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17).