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Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Printable Version

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Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Catholic Johnny - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 09:41 PM)archdiocesan Wrote: Vatican II is "universalist"? Any evidence for that?

Readily.  Pope John Paul II built an entire super-doctrine on this sentence from Gaudium et Spes 22:  

For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man.

Read Redemptor hominis.  Or if you dare, Father Johannes Dormann.  Karl Rahner's novel speculation about 'anonymous Christians' was peaking at the time he served as a periti on the council.  And none of this is conspiritorialism - it is proudly hailed in the light of day by the conciliarists as a grand triumph of the modern mind (scurrilously attributed to the influence of the Holy Ghost in many cases) over those who followed the teaching of Popes St. Pius X and Pius XII.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Catholic Johnny - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 10:13 PM)archdiocesan Wrote: Nostra Aetate can be accused of many things, but it is not universalist. If you're going to make sweeping claims, be capable of substantiating them. As for your claim that in the documents of Vatican II "we don't need Christ to avoid" Hell... that doesn't quite withstand scrutiny. Just one example:
Quote:Since no one can be saved who does not first believe, priests, as co-workers with their bishops, have the primary duty of proclaiming the Gospel of God to all. In this way they fulfill the command of the Lord: "Going therefore into the whole world preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mk 16:15), and they establish and build up the People of God. Through the saving word the spark of faith is lit in the hearts of unbelievers, and fed in the hearts of the faithful. This is the way that the congregation of faithful is started and grows, just as the Apostle describes: "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17).

Dear brother in Christ:
Surely you are schooled in the tactic of the Modernists to employ a perfectly orthodox text side-by-side with an inprecise and ambiguous one?  "Believe" here is interpreted by the Modernists as "consciousness" which Pope John Paul II had already defined as what formerly constituted 'conversion.'  To wit, the entire human race is already justified, but it is the vocation of the Church to raise awareness of this fact so that by his consciousness man may realize what has already been accomplished a priori, viz, that they are already Christians whether they desire it or not or whether they believe it or not.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Catholic Johnny - 09-25-2011

Lastly, let me say that anyone who takes Fr. Barron for a serious theologian is easy prey to pop-religion.  Among his other astonishing conclusions is that there may be zero souls in hell.  http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr-Barron-comments-on-Is-Hell-Crowded-or-Empty.aspx

Our Lord was not wasting His divine breath warning us about the dangers of hell.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - mikemac - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 01:53 PM)mikemac Wrote: Dominus Iesus, published on August 6, 2000 states that people outside of Christianity are "in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation", and that non-Catholic Christian communities had "defects."  Cardinal Kasper was critical of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith document Dominus Iesus, which he believed was an offense to the Jewish people.

I'm going to have to read Dominus Iesus cause it was written because of the ambiguous and numerous interpretations that have arisen from the Second Vatican Council documents.  Does invincibly ignorant mean the same as baptism by desire?  To me they seem similar.  The reason why I ask is because Archbishop Lefebvre recognized and wrote about baptism by desire.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's also part of the Council of Trent too, isn't it?  Don't jump on me for this because I'm just wondering if the Second Vatican Council documents weren't as bad as what we think but had some terrible interpretations?  Is that possible?  It seems like people like Cardinal Kasper went way off base with what he wrote.  Anyway I'm going to post Dominus Iesus here and come back and read it tomorrow.  It bears the signature of both Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html       


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - SouthpawLink - 09-25-2011

mikemac,
To read about invincible ignorance and baptism of desire, please read Bishop George Hay's treatment of it in his The Sincere Christian; scroll down to Part 4, Q. 10 to read about the requirements for one to be in invincible ignorance, and Part 8, Q. 28 to read about baptism of desire.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/salvation-text.htm

I would also suggest you read Fr. Michael Müller's The Catholic Dogma, especially part II, sections 7 and 11:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecumenism/muller.htm


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - mikemac - 09-25-2011

Thanks SouthpawLink.  I got lots to read tomorrow.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - INPEFESS - 09-25-2011

(09-25-2011, 10:19 PM)Catholic Johnny Wrote: "Believe" here is interpreted by the Modernists as "consciousness" which Pope John Paul II had already defined as what formerly constituted 'conversion.'  To wit, the entire human race is already justified, but it is the vocation of the Church to raise awareness of this fact so that by his consciousness man may realize what has already been accomplished a priori, viz, that they are already Christians whether they desire it or not or whether they believe it or not.

Indeed. Anyone who has studied his phenomenological views knows that he does not use "belief" in the same way that Catholics do. And this is how these texts get a free pass: they use words like "belief" and "Christ" that Catholics think are merely a confirmation of the truth they understand. But the authors of the texts have made clear that their views on these concepts are anything but traditional. After all, there are other ways to think about Christ than the "Christ of history", Who died on the Cross.

It is comforting to encounter other Catholics who actually understand the heresy.

I think that is one of the most significant causes of the confusion today: so few understand what Modernism is or how it uses Christianity to teach its errors. It slips by unnoticed in so many texts of Vatican II that we are commanded to interpret "in the light of tradition".


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Catholic Johnny - 09-26-2011

This is precisely why St. Pius X began Pascendi with these sobering words:

2. That We make no delay in this matter is rendered necessary especially by the fact that the partisans of error [Modernists] are to be sought not only among the Church's open enemies; they lie hid, a thing to be deeply deplored and feared, in her very bosom and heart, and are the more mischievous, the less conspicuously they appear. We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the Catholic laity, nay, and this is far more lamentable, to the ranks of the priesthood itself, who, feigning a love for the Church, lacking the firm protection of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, vaunt themselves as reformers of the Church; and, forming more boldly into line of attack, assail all that is most sacred in the work of Christ, not sparing even the person of the Divine Redeemer, whom, with sacrilegious daring, they reduce to a simple, mere man.

John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have capitulated to the existentialists regardless of the appearances of their encyclicals.  Their general teachings may be interpreted as orthodox but are more commonly interpreted as vehicles for progressivism and modernism.  To put it bluntly, they have capitulated to evolutionism which is the serious error of Teilhard and the foundation of Modernism which St. Pius X called "the synthesis of all heresies" which destroys all religion."


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - Norbert - 09-26-2011

I was prepared to charge in with an attack on VII conceptions of "belief" but my fellow trads appear to have said what I was going to say: namely that the VII popes have mostly proclaimed or acted as if belief in anything was sufficient to unite man with the mystical body of Christ.  Terribly unfortunate.  More prayer for the Church is needed, but most of all trads must look to their own salvation.


Re: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so. - ggreg - 09-26-2011

(09-25-2011, 09:41 PM)archdiocesan Wrote: Vatican II is "universalist"? Any evidence for that?

If you don't ever talk about Catholic teaching then you are undermining it. Given the massive increase in priests and nuns losing their vocations, Catholics lapsing and the total absence of the mention of Hell when I was growing up. Except to mockingly deny Hell and suggest it was a figment of old fashioned imaginations, I'd say the Novus Ordo crowd got their ideas from somewhere.