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Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Printable Version

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Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Melkite - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 02:53 PM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 01:02 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-25-2011, 11:55 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I highly doubt the sacraments would be valid, but I would think that God would likely step in and give those who were properly disposed to receive these "sacraments" the grace from them.  I don't think they'd be hung out to dry, so to speak.

No, silly, why would God step in and do that for them?  He has no such mercy for babies who die unbaptized with only Original Sin on their souls.  That's why we have Limbo.  Why would God show such mercy to the undeserving wretch who mistakenly dies in both Original and Actual Sin, if he is unwilling to show such mercy on infants?  Limbo is the outermost ring of hell.  Perhaps these souls go to the second most outer ring of hell?

Not to derail this too much but..
Baptism is required for salvation... I don't know why you seem to have such an issue with it.

The Gospel according to St. John 3:5 Wrote:Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

St. John Chrysostom (Homily XXV on the Gospel of John 3:5) Wrote:If any ask, How, stop his mouth with the declaration of God, which is the strongest and a plain proof. If any enquire, Why is water included? let us also in return ask, Wherefore was earth employed at the beginning in the creation of man? for that it was possible for God to make man without earth, is quite plain to every one. Be not then over-curious.

That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On one occasion, when the Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:47

St. Irenæus (Against Heresies 2.22) Wrote:Christ came to save all who are reborn through Him to God — infants, children, and youths(infantes et parvulos et pueros).

St. Augustine (On the Soul, Book III) Wrote:If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.

St. Augustine (Epistle 28) Wrote:Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ.

St. Ambrose (II De Abraham., c. xi) Wrote:No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity.

I know, that's what I'm saying!  If God won't save a baby who is the victim of abortion without baptism, why would he save someone who thinks he is baptized but wasn't because a possessed priest baptized him invalidly?  We Catholics are dogmatically bound to profess faith in a fickle God on this matter.


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - K3vinhood - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 08:50 PM)Melkite Wrote: I know, that's what I'm saying!  If God won't save a baby who is the victim of abortion without baptism, why would he save someone who thinks he is baptized but wasn't because a possessed priest baptized him invalidly?  We Catholics are dogmatically bound to profess faith in a fickle God on this matter.

Fickle God?

If one does not get baptized, he is not reborn, thus he is dead to God.

If the trinitarian formula and water are used, the baptism is valid.

It doesn't matter what the priests status is (at least I don't think it does), laypeople can even Baptize in emergency situations.


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Melkite - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 08:57 PM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 08:50 PM)Melkite Wrote: I know, that's what I'm saying!  If God won't save a baby who is the victim of abortion without baptism, why would he save someone who thinks he is baptized but wasn't because a possessed priest baptized him invalidly?  We Catholics are dogmatically bound to profess faith in a fickle God on this matter.

Fickle God?

If one does not get baptized, he is not reborn, thus he is dead to God.

If the trinitarian formula and water are used, the baptism is valid.

It doesn't matter what the priests status is (at least I don't think it does), laypeople can even Baptize in emergency situations.

Exactly, a fickle God.  One who is so compassionate and merciful that he sent his only Son to die for our sins so we wouldn't have to die in them, as long as we are baptized, even though we continue to sin repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly, wallowing around in our own muck for decades, and he continually offers to pull us out and wash us off and save us, yet he spares not one iota of mercy for an infant who dies without baptism, who is not guilty of willfully rolling around in the muck but is solely the tragic victim of being conceived into a fallen state over which they had no choice in the matter.  Yes, that meets the definition of pretty damn fickle.


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Mithrandylan - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 09:16 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 08:57 PM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 08:50 PM)Melkite Wrote: I know, that's what I'm saying!  If God won't save a baby who is the victim of abortion without baptism, why would he save someone who thinks he is baptized but wasn't because a possessed priest baptized him invalidly?  We Catholics are dogmatically bound to profess faith in a fickle God on this matter.

Fickle God?

If one does not get baptized, he is not reborn, thus he is dead to God.

If the trinitarian formula and water are used, the baptism is valid.

It doesn't matter what the priests status is (at least I don't think it does), laypeople can even Baptize in emergency situations.

Exactly, a fickle God.  One who is so compassionate and merciful that he sent his only Son to die for our sins so we wouldn't have to die in them, as long as we are baptized, even though we continue to sin repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly, wallowing around in our own muck for decades, and he continually offers to pull us out and wash us off and save us, yet he spares not one iota of mercy for an infant who dies without baptism, who is not guilty of willfully rolling around in the muck but is solely the tragic victim of being conceived into a fallen state over which they had no choice in the matter.  Yes, that meets the definition of pretty damn fickle.

Isn't the church's stance on babies who die without baptism pretty much non existent?  Limbo is just an opinion, right?  So really it's EENS vs God's mercy...


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Melkite - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 09:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Isn't the church's stance on babies who die without baptism pretty much non existent?  Limbo is just an opinion, right?  So really it's EENS vs God's mercy...

:popcorn:


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Mithrandylan - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 09:37 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 09:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Isn't the church's stance on babies who die without baptism pretty much non existent?  Limbo is just an opinion, right?  So really it's EENS vs God's mercy...

:popcorn:

The point is that (as I understand it) people are free to believe that babies go to limbo, go to heaven or burn.  So if you argue one way or the other it basically is just arguing theology and not dogma.


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Melkite - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 09:39 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 09:37 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 09:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Isn't the church's stance on babies who die without baptism pretty much non existent?  Limbo is just an opinion, right?  So really it's EENS vs God's mercy...

:popcorn:

The point is that (as I understand it) people are free to believe that babies go to limbo, go to heaven or burn.  So if you argue one way or the other it basically is just arguing theology and not dogma.

You modernist you, with your RATIONAL THINKING!!!


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Mithrandylan - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 09:44 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 09:39 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 09:37 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-26-2011, 09:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Isn't the church's stance on babies who die without baptism pretty much non existent?  Limbo is just an opinion, right?  So really it's EENS vs God's mercy...

:popcorn:

The point is that (as I understand it) people are free to believe that babies go to limbo, go to heaven or burn.  So if you argue one way or the other it basically is just arguing theology and not dogma.

You modernist you, with your RATIONAL THINKING!!!

Here, do with me what you will.  [Image: firewood-storage-rack.jpg][Image: gasoline-tank.jpg][Image: AAAAC9gBwi4AAAAAATQNkA.jpg?v=1299104501000]


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - Melkite - 09-26-2011

(09-26-2011, 09:49 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Here, do with me what you will.  [Image: firewood-storage-rack.jpg][Image: gasoline-tank.jpg][Image: AAAAC9gBwi4AAAAAATQNkA.jpg?v=1299104501000]

[Image: fire.jpg]  [Image: hotdog.jpg]  [Image: smore.jpg]


Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - K3vinhood - 09-27-2011

The Fathers of the Church along with the Gospel shows that Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

God could apply the graces of Baptism in the womb or in some other way as God can do anything, but we can't just assume he does that, the Fathers seem to think that he does not.