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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-08-2011

(12-08-2011, 06:12 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-08-2011, 04:42 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: So saving grace and actual grace are the grace that saves us and the grace that makes us greater saints that others. Is it possible that God loves some "more" than others because the people themselves don't love God as much? Or don't try as much?
I find the priest's answer very unsatisfying, since it still implies God compels people to do stuff.

He hardened the Pharaoh's heart.  St. Paul tells us that we do nothing good which is not totally from God and attributed to Him.

Christ himself said so.

"I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-08-2011

Yup.  He didn't say you could do a little bit.  He didn't say that He supplies the grace and that you then make decisions about whether to follow it or not.  He says you do nothing.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-08-2011

Nothing profitable and good to your salvation, that is.

It's a simple truth but very hard to swallow because of our human pride. That's what it all boils down to.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-08-2011

(12-08-2011, 06:32 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Nothing profitable and good to your salvation, that is.

It's a simple truth but very hard to swallow because of our human pride. That's what it all boils down to.

Read my post: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3446716.msg33652704.html#msg33652704

Christ gives us the gift of being able to merit, not in the ultimate sense, but in some real sense, as St. Thomas teaches - our meriting is due to Christ's meriting.
But because we do not merit in the ultimate sense, we must recognize that in that primary sense we are nothing.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-08-2011

(12-08-2011, 06:32 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Nothing profitable and good to your salvation, that is.

It's a simple truth but very hard to swallow because of our human pride. That's what it all boils down to.

I think it's a Semipelagianism at the heart of our catechesis.  We're taught that coming to faith is a partnership between God and man.  We are taught that God offers grace to us and that it is then our free choice to accept or reject it.

Please, folks.  Think of the above statement and then realize that many of us have been taught to believe it, but it has been condemned infallibly as heresy by the Second Council of Orange.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-08-2011

There are some who are never offered grace, by God, and no matter what they do therfore, even if they live by the Natural Law, they will not be saved.
God choses whom He wants to save.
We have no say so in that matter.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-08-2011, 09:12 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-08-2011, 06:32 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Nothing profitable and good to your salvation, that is.

It's a simple truth but very hard to swallow because of our human pride. That's what it all boils down to.

I think it's a Semipelagianism at the heart of our catechesis.  We're taught that coming to faith is a partnership between God and man.  We are taught that God offers grace to us and that it is then our free choice to accept or reject it.

Please, folks.  Think of the above statement and then realize that many of us have been taught to believe it, but it has been condemned infallibly as heresy by the Second Council of Orange.

Could you point out where in the Council of Orange it is declared heresy and which papal statement defined it as infallible teaching?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

Quote:CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism-if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-09-2011

(12-08-2011, 09:12 PM)Walty Wrote: I think it's a Semipelagianism at the heart of our catechesis.  We're taught that coming to faith is a partnership between God and man.  We are taught that God offers grace to us and that it is then our free choice to accept or reject it.

Some grace (what Lagrange calls "sufficient" grace) can be rejected by us (by God's eternal permission only, but it is we who do it, by our sinful will). Efficacious grace cannot be resisted  (see earlier quote from Lagrange), but moves the will without destroying its freedom, as it did with Our Lady.

We can will good only by grace; to God be the glory.  Only grace brings us to pray. But by grace we can accept grace and pray for more grace..

You can't leave the free will entirely out of it.  Grace works in the will (as well as the intellect), but doesn't destroy its freedom. This is a mystery, but God does not  force the will.

However I basically agree with you; how can I not?.  The Council of Orange is powerful stuff.  I remember the first time I read it.  Wow!


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

One cannot accept sufficient grace without having first been elected by God, making that person incapable of choosing anything but efficacious grace.