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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 01:13 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Or is it because, completely irregardless of what they will do or who they will be in the confines of time, God has chosen to save some and the rest are doomed because he truly doesn't love them and has no desire to elect them as well?

This is where you subtlety reject free will.  It is BECAUSE of what they will FREELY do, that they are not saved.  If they sin one time, then they can not bear the sight of the beatific vision.  Probably a large portion end up in Limbo, but you don't have to believe that.

Out of the WHOLE FALLEN RACE, God sent His only Son to provide a means to Salvation.  NO ONE has a claim on that FREE GIFT.  And He gives that Gift for His own secret (classical meaning) purpose to those we call the elect through Grace.  The reprobate stay in their natural state.  They are the city of man.  Some God justifies and sanctifies for the City of God.  Why did flaming homo Oscar Wilde convert on his deathbed and get baptized, yet Apostle Judas, who walked around for 3 years ("wasting his time") end up, most likely, in hell?  Why were you born to hear the Truth, yet some naked savage will not?  Is it something you did to "earn"?  It is all a Mystery.  But any other system will fall apart.  You deny Original Sin, and you will bring out of the pits of hell: Vatican II.

*I* don't reject free will, I don't believe that God predestines people to either heaven or hell.  I was wording it based on what I believe the Thomist understanding to be based on Walty's posts, which have said that God chooses to elect prior to any consideratioin of what the person does in his or her life.  Completely irregardless is what that means.  I don't deny Original Sin, I merely deny that we inherit any guilt from it.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote:  If God does not choose to elect us, and there is nothing we can do to escape hell for being born into a situation we did not choose, then we do not have free will in the matter.

Read what you just wrote.  You say, "only if God overrides our nature, do we have free will."  You contradict yourself.  It is BECAUSE of our free will, that we will end up damned.  We are a FALLEN RACE.  Your problem is with Original Sin.

Quote:  I'll begin visiting area Orthodox churches this Sunday. 

Do me a favor since I took time to reply to you.  When you join up with those heretics, be the best one there is.  Scream the loudest: "JESUS IS A LIAR"  "YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY WHEN YOU DIVORCE AND REMARRY".  Then imagine you can spit on Him for being such a liar.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 01:31 PM)Melkite Wrote: *I* don't reject free will, I don't believe that God predestines people to either heaven or hell.

Read St. Paul again, especially Romans 9.

Your problem is that you don't really believe we're a fallen, corrupt race that is not entitled to any mercy. Salvation is a work of mercy on God's part, not of justice.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote:  I don't deny Original Sin, I merely deny that we inherit any guilt from it.

You have already lost the Faith. 
Trent Wrote:If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
That is the bedrock of the Faith.  I imagine even the heretic Orthodox believe in this.  Otherwise, Jesus wasted His time on the cross.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 01:30 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 01:24 PM)Melkite Wrote: I'll begin visiting area Orthodox churches this Sunday.

So you're not comfortable with election but you're comfortable with a church that rejects Scripture?

Not all of Scripture paints an election picture.  I'm not comfortable with a Church that teaches God chooses to not give someone a chance to love him back and then condemns him to eternal fiery torment for something he never could have chosed otherwise.  That is, I'm going to punish you for doing wrong when I never allowed you to do otherwise.  And, the Catholic Church either ignores or rejects the parts of Scripture that don't line up with the Augustinian/Calvinist view.  So, yes, I am more comfortable with Church that accepts all of Scripture and just doesn't interpret it as harshly as you.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 01:36 PM)James02 Wrote: [
Trent Wrote:If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

I don't see anything about inherited guilt here.  No one suggests the sin of Adam didn't INJURE the rest of us.  The bedrock of the faith is that we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin as if we committed the sin ourself?  And you're saying *I've* lost the faith?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote:  I'm not comfortable with a Church that teaches God chooses to not give someone a chance to love him back and then condemns him to eternal fiery torment for something he never could have chosed otherwise.  That is, I'm going to punish you for doing wrong when I never allowed you to do otherwise.

Lies and excuses.  I already said you may believe that the naked savage goes to Limbo.  That is perfectly acceptable.  That excuse just died.

Second, the Church has always taught free will.  A reprobate can choose to love God.  He won't.  He is fallen.  Or he is Judas, who may have loved Jesus somewhat, and who may have been an upright Jewish boy as a child.  Yet HE FREELY CHOSE to stab Jesus in the back.  You argue this is unjust, and that God should turn him into a robot and prevent him FROM HIS OWN NATURE.

The imperfect CAN NOT STAND THE SIGHT OF GOD.  UNDERSTAND THAT.  ONE SIN IS THE GRAVEST OF AGONIES WHEN YOU VIEW THE BEATIFIC VISION.

Your problem is Original Sin, not grace and free will.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

Melkite,

Have you ever felt that you were not responsible for your sins every time you yielded to your wicked inclinations? Or have you ever felt that it was out of your control not to sin or that you did not freely and willfully choose evil? Think about it.

Of course not. Every time you did it, you freely chose it whilst knowing it was wrong. What excuse will you present before God's tribunal? That He didn't give you the grace He's not obliged to give you anyway? Nonsense. Your punishment is due.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: No one suggests the sin of Adam didn't INJURE the rest of us.

Ok, then follow along.  That injury is Sin.  So Melkite, if man sins, how can he be saved?  How can he bear to view the beatific vision, which is PERFECT?  He can't "earn" this.  And he can't suffer the sight of God in His glory.  Read what happened to Ezekiel when he just had a mere vision of the beatific vision.  He was reduced to a shivering mound.  Imagine the read deal.

And so there you have it.  Man, left to free will, will never deserve heaven.  By default, they go to hell, which is a relief for them.  And you can believe many go to Limbo and remain Catholic.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 01:32 PM)James02 Wrote: Do me a favor since I took time to reply to you.  When you join up with those heretics, be the best one there is.  Scream the loudest: "JESUS IS A LIAR"  "YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY WHEN YOU DIVORCE AND REMARRY".  Then imagine you can spit on Him for being such a liar.

I'm not happy about the Orthodox position on that either, but to be fair to them, Jesus didn't say 'except when you can get a annulment.'  At least the Orthodox acknowledge that a union performed by a valid priest is a valid marriage, they don't fall back on an abstract 'oh, the marriage never actually existed' excuse to allow divorce and remarriage like we do.