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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Heaven is not a reward for Good people.  I repeat, it is not a "reward".  Heaven is the Beatific Vision.  It is what we were made for.  To contemplate the Beatific vision.  Because God is All Love, All Just, All Truth, All Mercy.  He is perfect.

And we lost our purpose.  We fell, like the demons.  By God's Grace, we can be sanctified, and apply the Blood of Jesus to our sins, through Faith, without which Faith it is impossible to be saved.  IMPOSSIBLE.

I repeat, heaven is not some kind of reward.  It WAS the purpose for our existence, but was lost.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: they don't fall back on an abstract 'oh, the marriage never actually existed' excuse to allow divorce and remarriage like we do.

Come on, you are going to try that weak pathetic excuse HERE?

Ok, we'll play that game.  If I put a gun to your head and force you to marry my daughter, before a priest, with witnesses, guess what.  There was no marriage.  An annulment is an investigation and statement of this fact.  Only.  Period.

That heretics and traitors abuse this obscure, rarely used policy to launch "Catholic Divorce" is not debated.  Remember you are dealing with someone who believes we are in the Great Apostacy.

But the Orthodox spout vile heresies and call Jesus a liar.  No comparison to the Catholic ABUSE of a policy based on metaphysical necessity.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 01:31 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 01:13 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Or is it because, completely irregardless of what they will do or who they will be in the confines of time, God has chosen to save some and the rest are doomed because he truly doesn't love them and has no desire to elect them as well?

This is where you subtlety reject free will.  It is BECAUSE of what they will FREELY do, that they are not saved.  If they sin one time, then they can not bear the sight of the beatific vision.  Probably a large portion end up in Limbo, but you don't have to believe that.

Out of the WHOLE FALLEN RACE, God sent His only Son to provide a means to Salvation.  NO ONE has a claim on that FREE GIFT.  And He gives that Gift for His own secret (classical meaning) purpose to those we call the elect through Grace.  The reprobate stay in their natural state.  They are the city of man.  Some God justifies and sanctifies for the City of God.  Why did flaming homo Oscar Wilde convert on his deathbed and get baptized, yet Apostle Judas, who walked around for 3 years ("wasting his time") end up, most likely, in hell?  Why were you born to hear the Truth, yet some naked savage will not?  Is it something you did to "earn"?  It is all a Mystery.  But any other system will fall apart.  You deny Original Sin, and you will bring out of the pits of hell: Vatican II.

*I* don't reject free will, I don't believe that God predestines people to either heaven or hell.  I was wording it based on what I believe the Thomist understanding to be based on Walty's posts, which have said that God chooses to elect prior to any consideratioin of what the person does in his or her life.  Completely irregardless is what that means.  I don't deny Original Sin, I merely deny that we inherit any guilt from it.
The Catholic Church's teaching from the Catechism on the guilt of sin we inherit from Adam:

"Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”. Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed”—a state and not an act.

Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin—an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. (403-405)"



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

James, I didn't know believing in limbo for anything other than unbaptized infants was an option.  That makes it a lot better if that is a real option, but it still doesn't change the predestination thing.  I agree that you can't get to heaven with any imperfection, I agree that we aren't entitled to heaven just for existing.  But I disagree that it is just to punish someone for something out of their control.  As long is there is some kind of punishment for merely existing when it was God's choice to do nothing, then I can't ever accept or assent to that.

Vetus,  of course I am responsible for my sins.  But God also gives me free will to choose to sin or not.  It is you who believe that the unelect can do nothing but sin, not me.  If God doesn't choose to give me the grace that is the only thing that can possibly prevent me from sinning, then my defense will be that I could do nothing else without you, and you chose to withold yourself from me.  But God is just, so I don't have to worry about that, because thomistic election is a sham.  It's not how God actually works because the Latin translation it comes from is flawed.

Now you think about it for a minute.  How screwed up does a moral system have to be to say that you are incapable of doing any good, yet only you are responsible for any evil?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: But I disagree that it is just to punish someone for something out of their control.  As long is there is some kind of punishment for merely existing when it was God's choice to do nothing, then I can't ever accept or assent to that.
But they do have control over it.  They FREELY CHOOSE sin.

Quote:  It is you who believe that the unelect can do nothing but sin, not me.  If God doesn't choose to give me the grace that is the only thing that can possibly prevent me from sinning, then my defense will be that I could do nothing else without you, and you chose to withold yourself from me. 
  But He does give Graces and the reprobate FREELY CHOOSES sin.  There is a subtle difference here.  You CAN do something else.  Without Grace you WON'T do other but sin.  We are a fallen race.
Quote:  How screwed up does a moral system have to be to say that you are incapable of doing any good, yet only you are responsible for any evil?
  Perfectly rational.  And when you reject it, you end up in Babel and Chaos.  What are the punishments that the reprobate suffer?  Have you witnessed this?  Can you report back that they suffer unjustly?  Is there a Limbo?  Have you seen it and can you report back what is going on there?  You blindly judge God.  THIS IS A MYSTERY, you can not know.  We have Scripture and the Church.  Stay in that framework and quit speculating on what you will never know this side of life.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:01 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: they don't fall back on an abstract 'oh, the marriage never actually existed' excuse to allow divorce and remarriage like we do.

Come on, you are going to try that weak pathetic excuse HERE?

Ok, we'll play that game.  If I put a gun to your head and force you to marry my daughter, before a priest, with witnesses, guess what.  There was no marriage.  An annulment is an investigation and statement of this fact.  Only.  Period.

That heretics and traitors abuse this obscure, rarely used policy to launch "Catholic Divorce" is not debated.  Remember you are dealing with someone who believes we are in the Great Apostacy.

But the Orthodox spout vile heresies and call Jesus a liar.  No comparison to the Catholic ABUSE of a policy based on metaphysical necessity.

Then we truly are in the Great Apostasy, but we've been here for 1500 years.  The Orthodox call Jesus a liar by allowing remarriage, and the Catholics call Jesus a liar by teaching that God wills some to perish and that he doesn't love all men.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: and the Catholics call Jesus a liar by teaching that God wills some to perish and that he doesn't love all men.

And thus I have proven that Melkite denies Free Will.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-09-2011

"Therefore original sin is transmitted by way of natural generation. This conviction of the Church is indicated also by the practice of infant baptism, to which the [tridentine] conciliar decree refers. Newborn infants are incapable of committing personal sin, yet in accordance with the Church’s centuries-old tradition, they are baptized shortly after birth for the remission of sin. The decree states: “They are truly baptized for the remission of sin, so that what they contracted in generation may be cleansed by regeneration” (DS 1514)."

Teaching of Pope John Paul II.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:20 PM)James02 Wrote: But He does give Graces and the reprobate FREELY CHOOSES sin.  There is a subtle difference here.  You CAN do something else.  Without Grace you WON'T do other but sin.  We are a fallen race.

*sing songy voice* seMAAAAANtics!

Quote:  How screwed up does a moral system have to be to say that you are incapable of doing any good, yet only you are responsible for any evil?
  Perfectly rational.  And when you reject it, you end up in Babel and Chaos.  What are the punishments that the reprobate suffer?  Have you witnessed this?  Can you report back that they suffer unjustly?  Is there a Limbo?  Have you seen it and can you report back what is going on there?  You blindly judge God.  THIS IS A MYSTERY, you can not know.  We have Scripture and the Church.  Stay in that framework and quit speculating on what you will never know this side of life.
[/quote]

If I can never know, then I have to base my faith on what I do know.  I know for sure that God loves all of his creation.  I know that it is God's will that NONE should perish.  I know that insofar as I respond to his love, he will give me EVERY opportunity to return that love, to choose to follow him and to receive his salvation.  That is my faith, it is what I despite random quotes from taken out of context that can be made to appear as proof to the contrary.  Insofar as the Catholic Church teaches contrary to that, then I necessarily have to reject Catholicism, or else I am a liar every time I step foot in a Catholic church.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:30 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: and the Catholics call Jesus a liar by teaching that God wills some to perish and that he doesn't love all men.

And thus I have proven that Melkite denies Free Will.

What?!? Explain?  All that proves is I've been convinced Catholics don't believe in free will.