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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: *sing songy voice* seMAAAAANtics!

Yes, when you have no argument, you have to result to this display.  Sad.

Didn't Vetus ask to you if when you sinned you had a choice?  And yet you FREELY CHOOSE evil.  You CAN choose the other course, YOU ADMITTED THIS, but you WILL choose evil, because man is fallen.

Quote:  I know for sure that God loves all of his creation.  I know that it is God's will that NONE should perish.  I know that insofar as I respond to his love, he will give me EVERY opportunity to return that love, to choose to follow him and to receive his salvation.
Nothing about FREE WILL or the FALLEN RACE?  As I said, you reject Free Will, with all of its implications.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote:
What?!? Explain?  All that proves is I've been convinced Catholics don't believe in free will.

The Catholic Church teaches that when all of us sin, we freely choose to sin.  Therefore ALL OF US are excluded from heaven.  Period.  Done.  We have free will.  We will choose to sin.  One sin prevents you from viewing the Beatific Vision.  Done.  Over.  Period.  Stop there and accept it. 


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:38 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: *sing songy voice* seMAAAAANtics!

Yes, when you have no argument, you have to result to this display.  Sad.

Didn't Vetus ask to you if when you sinned you had a choice?  And yet you FREELY CHOOSE evil.  You CAN choose the other course, YOU ADMITTED THIS, but you WILL choose evil, because man is fallen.

Quote:  I know for sure that God loves all of his creation.  I know that it is God's will that NONE should perish.  I know that insofar as I respond to his love, he will give me EVERY opportunity to return that love, to choose to follow him and to receive his salvation.
Nothing about FREE WILL or the FALLEN RACE?  As I said, you reject Free Will, with all of its implications.

What do you mean?  Yes, I have free will.  God give me every opportunity until my dying breath, and at every opportunity I am free to say no to him.  What is sad is that the Catholic Church denies this while denying it denies this.  You are the one who denies free will, not I.  As for fallen race, of course we're fallen.  We suffer the consequences of sin and death.  I have never argued against that.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-09-2011

[quote='James02' pid='934207' dateline='1323456121']
Quote:
What?!? Explain?  All that proves is I've been convinced Catholics don't believe in free will.
Hi Melkite.
I just wanted to prove that Catholics believe in free will.
I wrote this, freely, of my own will.




Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:42 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote:
What?!? Explain?  All that proves is I've been convinced Catholics don't believe in free will.

The Catholic Church teaches that when all of us sin, we freely choose to sin.  Therefore ALL OF US are excluded from heaven.  Period.  Done.  We have free will.  We will choose to sin.  One sin prevents you from viewing the Beatific Vision.  Done.  Over.  Period.  Stop there and accept it. 

Can't stop there because you don't stop there.  Then you believe that God chooses not to elect some, so they are then incapable of not sinning.  You deny free will at the same time that you profess it.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: We suffer the consequences of sin and death.  I have never argued against that.

So the consequence is Sin?  Then how can man, who we both agree FREELY CHOOSES even one sin, get to heaven?  He does not deserve heaven.  It is probably more correct to say one sin will cause him to run in horror from the Beatific Vision.

But there it is.  How can Man, with Free Will, end up in heaven, while sin abounds, which you admit?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:45 PM)Old Salt Wrote: [quote='James02' pid='934207' dateline='1323456121']
Quote:
What?!? Explain?  All that proves is I've been convinced Catholics don't believe in free will.
Hi Melkite.
I just wanted to prove that Catholics believe in free will.
I wrote this, freely, of my own will.

Aww, that's cute.  But no you didn't.  God willed you to write it, you just think it was your will, but if it was your will, it would have been an offense against God's absolute sovereignty, so you couldn't do it unless God willed it.  Sorry for being smarmy, I know you weren't being smarmy with me, so don't take it personal :)


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: Can't stop there because you don't stop there.

Ahh... you see the trap.  You are not being allowed to waffle about.  I BELIEVE IN FREE WILL, do you?  I BELIEVE IN A FALLEN RACE, do you?

So I AM stopping there, until you start to commit to a position.  Do you concede that Man ON HIS OWN will Freely Choose to sin and thus lose heaven?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:50 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 02:45 PM)Old Salt Wrote: [quote='James02' pid='934207' dateline='1323456121']
Quote:
What?!? Explain?  All that proves is I've been convinced Catholics don't believe in free will.
Hi Melkite.
I just wanted to prove that Catholics believe in free will.
I wrote this, freely, of my own will.

Aww, that's cute.  But no you didn't.  God willed you to write it, you just think it was your will, but if it was your will, it would have been an offense against God's absolute sovereignty, so you couldn't do it unless God willed it.  Sorry for being smarmy, I know you weren't being smarmy with me, so don't take it personal :)
:LOL:


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 02:51 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Can't stop there because you don't stop there.

Ahh... you see the trap.  You are not being allowed to waffle about.  I BELIEVE IN FREE WILL, do you?  I BELIEVE IN A FALLEN RACE, do you?

So I AM stopping there, until you start to commit to a position.  Do you concede that Man ON HIS OWN will Freely Choose to sin and thus lose heaven?

Yes, I do.  But unlike you, I believe that God gave me sufficient grace to choose to say yes to God, whereas you believe God only gives the elect grace to choose God, grace which they are incapable of resisting.  I do believe in free will.  I believe you don't actually believe in free will despite you saying that you do.