FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Archives (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Theology and Philosophy (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? (/showthread.php?tid=51141)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: Yes, I do.

There you have it.  Man is lost.  Man is Justly, and Freely choosing to reject God.  That is the end of it.  That is all you need to realize, and then you MUST be Catholic.

What God does after that is 100% Gracious.  We have no claim on justice.  Heck, the last thing I want is Justice.  He can leave it be, or He can help.  No one has a claim on God.  WHY God does what He does is declared a Mystery.  It can not be determined.  You are dealing with God.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-09-2011

Bottom line is if you die in sanctifying grace you are saved.



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Melkite,
Embedded in your argument is a denial about the Law of Identity.  Free will is free will.  IT HAS CONSEQUENCES.  When you claim that I deny Free Will when I say men freely choose to go to hell, you are the one with the contradiction.

And I hope all who have watched this debate will realize the prophetic vision of Fr. Feeney, who only took to heart what Pope St. Pius X declared, when he saw what would happen if you denied EENS.  That from that you can be saved without Faith in Jesus.  And from that, Original Sin soon becomes denied.  And from that, the lid of hell is pried open and such insanity as the "Dignity of Man" and the "Omega Point" come flying out.

Original Sin is the bedrock of Catholic belief.  It is no coincidence that I also base my economic beliefs from one premise:  Man Is FALLEN.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

Melkite,

We're a fallen race, we're sinners who in and of themselves are unable to come to God, to desire goodness and salvation. That's the true consequence of original sin, our "natural" ungodliness. We can choose not to sin but we never do it without God's grace because sinning it's who we are in this fallen state. We all know that we sin willfully and freely, there's no excuse when it comes to that. I know that, you know that. Only if God reaches out his Hand to rescue us from our own cycle of iniquity, can we be saved and will to do good.

From this whole mass of perdition, God elects some unto salvation and leaves others to rightfully to perish in their sins. The reprobate are not robots, they're not forced to sin, they willfully and freely delight in sin, they choose sin all the time and hate godliness. It's precisely because God respects their free will that they eventually end up in Hell where they want to be to begin with. The reprobate don't want God or heaven, they can't stand that. Rather than "tyrannical," predestination and election are an affirmation of God's mercy in the face of man's obstinate will to sin. Election and predestination are absolutely certain and true and are clearly drawn from Scripture. You'll have to deal with it as long as you're a Christian, either Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. There's no way around it so I'd advise you to be prudent about your decisions. The key concept to come to grasp with this evangelical truth is a right understanding of original sin and of our own inherent wickedness. Many people have trouble with this because of our pride and sense of self-worth. We are all "natural" pelagians and it's hard to take those scales off from our eyes.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

"And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

Predestination is certain and true, Melkite. Scripture, the infallible word of God, is clear on the matter.

Read what St. Thomas has to say about it:

Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 23 Wrote:Article 6. Whether predestination is certain?

Objection 1. It seems that predestination is not certain. Because on the words "Hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown," (Apocalypse 3:11), Augustine says (De Corr. et Grat. 15): "Another will not receive, unless this one were to lose it." Hence the crown which is the effect of predestination can be both acquired and lost. Therefore predestination cannot be certain.

Objection 2. Further, granted what is possible, nothing impossible follows. But it is possible that one predestined--e.g. Peter--may sin and then be killed. But if this were so, it would follow that the effect of predestination would be thwarted. This then, is not impossible. Therefore predestination is not certain.

Objection 3. Further, whatever God could do in the past, He can do now. But He could have not predestined whom He hath predestined. Therefore now He is able not to predestine him. Therefore predestination is not certain.

On the contrary, A gloss on Romans 8:29: "Whom He foreknew, He also predestinated", says: "Predestination is the foreknowledge and preparation of the benefits of God, by which whosoever are freed will most certainly be freed."

I answer that, Predestination most certainly and infallibly takes effect; yet it does not impose any necessity, so that, namely, its effect should take place from necessity. For it was said above (Article 1), that predestination is a part of providence. But not all things subject to providence are necessary; some things happening from contingency, according to the nature of the proximate causes, which divine providence has ordained for such effects. Yet the order of providence is infallible, as was shown above (Question 22, Article 4). So also the order of predestination is certain; yet free-will is not destroyed; whence the effect of predestination has its contingency. Moreover all that has been said about the divine knowledge and will (14, 13; 19, 4) must also be taken into consideration; since they do not destroy contingency in things, although they themselves are most certain and infallible.

Reply to Objection 1. The crown may be said to belong to a person in two ways; first, by God's predestination, and thus no one loses his crown: secondly, by the merit of grace; for what we merit, in a certain way is ours; and thus anyone may lose his crown by mortal sin. Another person receives that crown thus lost, inasmuch as he takes the former's place. For God does not permit some to fall, without raising others; according to Job 34:24: "He shall break in pieces many and innumerable, and make others to stand in their stead." Thus men are substituted in the place of the fallen angels; and the Gentiles in that of the Jews. He who is substituted for another in the state of grace, also receives the crown of the fallen in that in eternal life he will rejoice at the good the other has done, in which life he will rejoice at all good whether done by himself or by others.

Reply to Objection 2. Although it is possible for one who is predestinated considered in himself to die in mortal sin; yet it is not possible, supposed, as in fact it is supposed that he is predestinated. Whence it does not follow that predestination can fall short of its effect.

Reply to Objection 3. Since predestination includes the divine will as stated above (Article 4): and the fact that God wills any created thing is necessary on the supposition that He so wills, on account of the immutability of the divine will, but is not necessary absolutely; so the same must be said of predestination. Wherefore one ought not to say that God is able not to predestinate one whom He has predestinated, taking it in a composite sense, thought, absolutely speaking, God can predestinate or not. But in this way the certainty of predestination is not destroyed.



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Parmandur - 12-09-2011

"But not all things subject to providence are necessary; some things happening from contingency, according to the nature of the proximate causes, which divine providence has ordained for such effects."  So, grace can be resisted, but God knows who will resist and who won't, planning accordingly.  St. Thomas walks the tight-rope between destiny and free will, holding them in balance.  We are destined to choose.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

And when you have concluded that all of us deserve hell, you reach the end of Justice.  And every leftist hates justice, especially commutative justice.  Which is why I abhor the term "social justice", but that is a different topic.

So we have come to the conclusion of Justice.  We're going to hell.  NOW, read some Saint Paul again, and pay attention when he preaches about the Law AND HOW IT IS INCAPABLE TO SAVE YOU.  Oh the richness, and glory of God and His Church.  Perfectly fitting together.

And thus we enter the realm of Mercy.  Oh how the leftist vomits at the thought.  How we would never dare refer to "Social Mercy" instead of "Social Justice".  Yes, we are in the realm of Mercy.  How the leftist must be revolted about the story of the farmer who paid workers working 12 hours 1 Denari, but also paid the worker only working 30 minutes 1 Denari.  The whining and howls over that are palpable.

Yes, Mercy.  God owes you nothing but hell.  Fall on your knees and pray for Mercy, placing your Hope in your glorious friend, brother, Lord and Saviour and King, Jesus, for without Faith In Jesus, you can not be saved.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 04:34 PM)James02 Wrote: And thus we enter the realm of Mercy.  Oh how the leftist vomits at the thought.  How we would never dare refer to "Social Mercy" instead of "Social Justice".  Yes, we are in the realm of Mercy.  How the leftist must be revolted about the story of the farmer who paid workers working 12 hours 1 Denari, but also paid the worker only working 30 minutes 1 Denari.  The whining and howls over that are palpable.

Yes, Mercy.  God owes you nothing but hell.  Fall on your knees and pray for Mercy, placing your Hope in your glorious friend, brother, Lord and Saviour and King, Jesus, for without Faith In Jesus, you can not be saved.

THIS!

It has to be stated over and over and over again.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Without FAITH IN JESUS YOU CAN NOT BE SAVED.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-09-2011

I don't have time to address your most recent posts now, I'll try to get to them later tonight.  For now, let me just say, if you are right, we have nothing to worry about if I become Orthodox.  By your logic, if I am one of the 0.0000000000000000000001% of people who are elect, even if I become Orthodox, God will call me back to the Catholic Church before I die, and I won't resist his calling.  If I am one of the 99.99999999999999999999999% of people who are not elect, then whether I become Orthodox or remain Catholic is irrelevant, because I am lost no matter what.  If I am elect, I can't possibly lose, and if I am not elect, I can't possibly win!

What a mystery the Catholic Church teaches!  Your god is so absolute in his sovereignty, that not even dwelling within the very Ark of Salvation can protect the unelect from the floodwaters of damnation!