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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Old Salt - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 06:25 PM)Melkite Wrote: I don't have time to address your most recent posts now, I'll try to get to them later tonight.  For now, let me just say, if you are right, we have nothing to worry about if I become Orthodox.  By your logic, if I am one of the 0.0000000000000000000001% of people who are elect, even if I become Orthodox, God will call me back to the Catholic Church before I die, and I won't resist his calling.  If I am one of the 99.99999999999999999999999% of people who are not elect, then whether I become Orthodox or remain Catholic is irrelevant, because I am lost no matter what.  If I am elect, I can't possibly lose, and if I am not elect, I can't possibly win!

What a mystery the Catholic Church teaches!  Your god is so absolute in his sovereignty, that not even dwelling within the very Ark of Salvation can protect the unelect from the floodwaters of damnation!
Your way sounds like the double predestination or predestinarianism of Calvin.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 06:25 PM)Melkite Wrote: Your god is so absolute in his sovereignty, that not even dwelling within the very Ark of Salvation can protect the unelect from the floodwaters of damnation!

Don't be childish.

You need to calm down and consider these realities patiently and humbly. The Orthodox believe in election and predestination too, they have to. It's part of revelation.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: Your god is so absolute in his sovereignty, that not even dwelling within the very Ark of Salvation can protect the unelect from the floodwaters of damnation!

True, many Catholics burn in hell.

But keep in mind that God is All Truth.  When He says there is One Faith and One Church, He's telling the Truth.  And He can not deceive.  It is NECESSARY.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-09-2011

I'm e-mailing every priest I know and talking to every priest I know about this, and I will convert to some other ancient Christian sect if this is what the Church believes.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 10:59 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 10:51 AM)Walty Wrote: Melkite, the idea that man's reception or rejection of God's grace lies with the man, that it is he who makes the final decision and not God, is the heresy of Semipelagianism.  It has been condemned by the Church on numerous occasions.

I believe that Molinism and Thomism can both be validly held by Catholics as neither have been declared as dogma, but, in looking at dogma and Scripture, Thomism seems to obviously be the right choice, in my opinion.  I wouldn't say that one has cut themselves off from the Church for disagreeing, however.

But is my understanding of what you are saying correct, or am I exaggerating it somehow?  How could Molinism and Thomism both be valid?  They seem irreconcilable to me, if my understanding of Thomism on this point is correct.  If one doesn't cut themselves off from the Church by rejecting the Thomist view, then wouldn't it mean that the council of Orange's canons aren't actually infallible?  Or does that mean that an interpretation that puts more emphasis on the will of man in responding to God's grace is acceptable and not inherently contrary to it?

They are contradictory, but since no official proclamation has occurred, it wouldn't be right to say that one is obviously cut off from the Church for believing in Molinism.  That being said, I do believe that Molinism contradicts fundamental teachings of the Church and should thus be rejected.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: and I will convert to some other ancient Christian sect if this is what the Church believes.
What belief?

That we are fallen?
That demons are lost forever?
That you need Faith in Jesus to be saved?

What "ancient" Christian sect denies this?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-09-2011

Do you people get it? Me and Melkite feel the interpretation that God picks some people to be saved and not others to be wrong. That IS Calvinist.
Orange basically said people don't pray and find God, they pray because God found them.
I submit that that makes no damn sense. The loving God I believe in doesn't work like that.
I've been a Catholic all my life, and my friends and family have always believed that I am religiously talented. As in, they feel I'm smart and know a lot about our Faith. I feel that I thus can make very good judgments on religion. And it is manifest to me that the above explanation doesn't make sense.
What am I supposed to do? Arguing with you people doesn't help since you name-call and scream heresy and use big ass documents that have been copy and pasted instead of explain what is going on. And when you have explained calmly, I've disagreed with you.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 07:10 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: Do you people get it? Me and Melkite feel the interpretation that God picks some people to be saved and not others to be wrong. That IS Calvinist.
Orange basically said people don't pray and find God, they pray because God found them.
I submit that that makes no damn sense. The loving God I believe in doesn't work like that.
I've been a Catholic all my life, and my friends and family have always believed that I am religiously talented. As in, they feel I'm smart and know a lot about our Faith. I feel that I thus can make very good judgments on religion. And it is manifest to me that the above explanation doesn't make sense.
What am I supposed to do? Arguing with you people doesn't help since you name-call and scream heresy and use big ass documents that have been copy and pasted instead of explain what is going on. And when you have explained calmly, I've disagreed with you.

I feel that you don't understand what Calvinism is.

Also, we're to both back up our assertions (something which has been asked for) and to also explain things in layman's terms.  You say you've been a Catholic all of your life.  You must remember that predestination is shrouded in mystery.  You should not think of leaving the Church of not accepting councils just because it sounds unsavory.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

Quote: and my friends and family have always believed that I am religiously talented. As in, they feel I'm smart and know a lot about our Faith.

And yet you can't answer a simple question.  Here it is again:  Is man fallen?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-09-2011

Is man fallen? Yes.