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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-09-2011

I dont have a problem with original sin. Just predestination. I dont see how you think that's the case


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-09-2011

We already went through this.  You deserve hell.  Done.  Period.  Proven.

Predestination comes from Mercy.  We have proven that God can send anyone to hell, and it is just.  So there is no "problem" with predestination.  But the Church has always declared that predestination works with FREE WILL.  The Molinist have a system that works, and you are allowed to believe it if you want.

Now WHY God chooses to have Mercy on some, you will never know.  That is for God, and God alone, though I wager that it will make sense if you get to heaven.

Exodus Wrote:and I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will be merciful to whom it shall please me.  And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me and live.



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

Well, I would argue about whether the Molinist system works.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Parmandur - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 10:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Well, I would argue about whether the Molinist system works.

I ain't a Molinist (incidentally Molinists are Thomists of a sort insofar as they are basing their theology on Aquinas, unlike say the Franciscans, so it is more proper maybe to say Dominican Thomists and Jesuit Thomists, as strong Jesuit Thomists still tend to just be Molinists pretty clear across the board), but what pray tell doesn't work?  The reason that the Church has not decided between the two systems is that they both work internally, and with Scripture.  It can well be wrong, but it is coherent.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 11:06 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 10:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Well, I would argue about whether the Molinist system works.

I ain't a Molinist (incidentally Molinists are Thomists of a sort insofar as they are basing their theology on Aquinas, unlike say the Franciscans, so it is more proper maybe to say Dominican Thomists and Jesuit Thomists, as strong Jesuit Thomists still tend to just be Molinists pretty clear across the board), but what pray tell doesn't work?  The reason that the Church has not decided between the two systems is that they both work internally, and with Scripture.  It can well be wrong, but it is coherent.

Remember that in Molinism God cannot affect man's will so He creates the world with given circumstances to make sure that men do what He wants, but only by means of the indirect force of manipulating creation. 

I will PM you something that I have written about the inherent problems of Molinism.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 10:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Well, I would argue about whether the Molinist system works.

It works but solely with God being an imperfect being which is impossible.

As Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange pointed out, the scientia media conceived by Molina, according to which God knows infallibly, before any determining divine decree on His part, the conditional free acts of the future:

1) Leads to the admission of an exception to the principle of causality and to the universal causality of the primary agent; being or the determination of these free acts of the future would not then come from God the first being;

2) It leads to the conclusion that the divine knowledge is passive with regard to these conditional free acts of the future, which determine this knowledge instead of being determined by it. The scientia media, thus positing a passivity in the pure Act, cannot be a pure perfection; it is a notion that attributes human imperfection to God;

3) Lastly, this theory, conceived to safeguard human liberty, must logically end in determinism of the circumstances; previous to any divine decree, God can infallibly foresee what would be Peter's choice if placed in certain circumstances, only if these cirumstances determine the choice.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-09-2011

Phil. 2:13: Further, God’s primary causality over human acts in particular is confirmed by St. Paul in his letter to the Philippians, when he exhorts them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling: “For it is God who worketh (ὁ ἐνεργῶν) in you, both to will (τὸ θέλειν) and to accomplish (τὸ ἐνεργεῖν), according to his good will.” This remarkable passage is quite explicit: God is the primary cause, both of the interior acts of the will (“to will”) and of the exterior acts of our other powers (“to accomplish”). The principle of divine primary causality is, therefore, not merely a medieval scholastic invention, but rather, a divinely revealed truth that Aquinas finds in St. Paul and only unpacks metaphysically through his Scholastic terminology.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

To hugely oversimplify things, in Molinism God has no direct control over the will of His creatures.  He's impotent when it comes to moving and touching men via grace.  He knows what his creatures would do in any specific situation, but He has absolutely no power to change that fact.  So the only way that He can get men to do this or that thing is to create the universe in such a way that men will do whatever He wants them to do.  He can manipulate the circumstances, but not the man. 

And this, especially in light of how we Christians fundamentally understand God as Creator, is a logical absurdity.  It also creates problems with free will.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-09-2011

Walty,  this concerns a much earlier post, but I do not understand you here:
(12-09-2011, 02:05 AM)Walty Wrote: One cannot accept sufficient grace without having first been elected by God, making that person incapable of choosing anything but efficacious grace.

Accepting (by God's help) sufficient grace and being given (infallibly choosing) efficacious grace is not a once in a lifetime event that happens only to the elect. A man (elect or not) can sin and not sin many times during his life. He can be offered sufficient grace again and again, and can (with God's help) accept it ), receive it and be given efficacious grace - efficacious for the action at hand, not as a guarantee of eternal salvation. 

One thing I think has been missing here is the discussion of of actual grace vs. Sanctifying Grace.  Sufficient and efficacious grace are kinds of actual grace, that applies to each good action.  Sanctifying Grace is "habitual"; it is a "state" that (once we are in) we remain in so long as we do not sin mortally.  Sanctifying Grace is first given at baptism.  Actual grace is given to help us not to sin, and to perform holy acts.  The elect are those who die in the state of Sanctifying Grace - that is, those who participate in Divine Life.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 11:37 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Walty,  this concerns a much earlier post, but I do not understand you here:
(12-09-2011, 02:05 AM)Walty Wrote: One cannot accept sufficient grace without having first been elected by God, making that person incapable of choosing anything but efficacious grace.

Accepting (by God's help) sufficient grace and being given (infallibly choosing) efficacious grace is not a once in a lifetime event that happens only to the elect. A man (elect or not) can sin and not sin many times during his life. He can be offered sufficient grace again and again, and can (with God's help) accept it ), receive it and be given efficacious grace - efficacious for the action at hand, not as a guarantee of eternal salvation. 

One thing I think has been missing here is the discussion of of actual grace vs. Sanctifying Grace.  Sufficient and efficacious grace are kinds of actual grace, that applies to each good action.  Sanctifying Grace is "habitual"; it is a "state" that (once we are in) we remain in so long as we do not sin mortally.  Sanctifying Grace is first given at baptism.  Actual grace is given to help us not to sin, and to perform holy acts.  The elect are those who die in the state of Sanctifying Grace - that is, those who participate in Divine Life.

But the decision of whether a man will be saved or not is not really the decision of the man.  Every person who exists or will exist in heaven will do so only by virtue of having been elected to go there before they ever made any choices in this world.