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Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 11:39 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 11:37 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Walty,  this concerns a much earlier post, but I do not understand you here:
(12-09-2011, 02:05 AM)Walty Wrote: One cannot accept sufficient grace without having first been elected by God, making that person incapable of choosing anything but efficacious grace.

Accepting (by God's help) sufficient grace and being given (infallibly choosing) efficacious grace is not a once in a lifetime event that happens only to the elect. A man (elect or not) can sin and not sin many times during his life. He can be offered sufficient grace again and again, and can (with God's help) accept it ), receive it and be given efficacious grace - efficacious for the action at hand, not as a guarantee of eternal salvation. 

One thing I think has been missing here is the discussion of of actual grace vs. Sanctifying Grace.  Sufficient and efficacious grace are kinds of actual grace, that applies to each good action.  Sanctifying Grace is "habitual"; it is a "state" that (once we are in) we remain in so long as we do not sin mortally.  Sanctifying Grace is first given at baptism.  Actual grace is given to help us not to sin, and to perform holy acts.  The elect are those who die in the state of Sanctifying Grace - that is, those who participate in Divine Life.

But the decision of whether a man will be saved or not is not really the decision of the man.  Every person who exists or will exist in heaven will do so only by virtue of having been elected to go there before they ever made any choices in this world. 

OK (I agree) but did you see the problem I had with what seems to be your interpretation of efficacious grace as being a one time thing?  Efficacious grace is not  "the grace that causes  or signifies election" but a grace for our good actions in this life, whether we are among the elect or not.



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-09-2011

(12-09-2011, 11:50 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 11:39 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-09-2011, 11:37 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Walty,  this concerns a much earlier post, but I do not understand you here:
(12-09-2011, 02:05 AM)Walty Wrote: One cannot accept sufficient grace without having first been elected by God, making that person incapable of choosing anything but efficacious grace.

Accepting (by God's help) sufficient grace and being given (infallibly choosing) efficacious grace is not a once in a lifetime event that happens only to the elect. A man (elect or not) can sin and not sin many times during his life. He can be offered sufficient grace again and again, and can (with God's help) accept it ), receive it and be given efficacious grace - efficacious for the action at hand, not as a guarantee of eternal salvation. 

One thing I think has been missing here is the discussion of of actual grace vs. Sanctifying Grace.  Sufficient and efficacious grace are kinds of actual grace, that applies to each good action.  Sanctifying Grace is "habitual"; it is a "state" that (once we are in) we remain in so long as we do not sin mortally.  Sanctifying Grace is first given at baptism.  Actual grace is given to help us not to sin, and to perform holy acts.  The elect are those who die in the state of Sanctifying Grace - that is, those who participate in Divine Life.

But the decision of whether a man will be saved or not is not really the decision of the man.  Every person who exists or will exist in heaven will do so only by virtue of having been elected to go there before they ever made any choices in this world. 

OK (I agree) but did you see the problem I had with what seems to be your interpretation of efficacious grace as being a one time thing?  Efficacious grace is not  "the grace that causes  or signifies election" but a grace for our good actions in this life, whether we are among the elect or not.

Right, but all of the actions of our life are decided by that one distinction between election or not.  Every good deed done in the life of someone who will be saved is only done because of election.  Election is the cause of theological virtue and not the other way around.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-10-2011

What do the Franciscans say?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - James02 - 12-10-2011

Quote: He can manipulate the circumstances, but not the man.
This goes beyond oversimplification and crosses into error.  The Molinist starts with Sanctifying Grace whereby man is regenerated, and then continues with Grace.  The BIG difference I can see (keep in mind I am sophmoric) is that the Molinist rejects types of Actual Graces.  It is efficacious if man cooperates.  It is merely sufficient if man rejects it.  But if a man accepts it, it is still by this Grace that he is able to accomplish some good.  So to say that Molinist hold that God only manipulates the circumstances, but not the man is the same thing as claiming Molinists deny that there is such a thing as grace.  That is in error.

New Advent has a good write up on it.  And yes, you may disagree with it all you want.  But a Catholic can be a Molinist.  It is not heresy.  I disagree with it because of the dependence on Time, which God is outside of.  But then again, so does Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange depend on time in criticizing Molinism as (edit) Vetus  quoted:
Quote: of these free acts of the future ....with regard to these conditional free acts of the future
  We are talking about God, and how he pre-( sic ) destines Man.  There is no future.  There is only present, with God, who we attempt to better understand.



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-10-2011

(12-09-2011, 06:44 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: You need to calm down and consider these realities patiently and humbly. The Orthodox believe in election and predestination too, they have to. It's part of revelation.

Yes, but they believe you are predestined when God makes the offer and you freely accept it.  When God offers salvation, and you choose to receive it, then you are elect.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/predestination.aspx


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-10-2011

(12-09-2011, 11:55 PM)Walty Wrote: Right, but all of the actions of our life are decided by that one distinction between election or not.  Every good deed done in the life of someone who will be saved is only done because of election.  Election is the cause of theological virtue and not the other way around.

All the actions of our life are not decided by the distinction between election or not, because virtuous actions are decided and caused by GOD, and can be caused even in the reprobate. But maybe you mean that God's eternal plan (causing election and all good in man) is the cause of our virtues, not the other way around.   

Anyway, I need to get back into the main flow of posts... :)


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-10-2011

(12-09-2011, 07:58 PM)James02 Wrote: No, those who contend with Orange contend with Original Sin, that we are fallen.  Just look at what Pelagius taught, and it becomes very clear.

I don't know enough about the Feeneyite heresy to know if it is or isn't because of that that you aren't understanding what we're objecting to, but it's not Original Sin.  Original Sin exists.  All of mankind has inherited it and is completely corrupted by it.  One cannot enter heaven with it.  No argument there.  The disagreement comes when you deny Scripture which says that it is God's will that none should perish, but instead you believe that it is only God's will that some shouldn't perish.  The disagreement comes when Scripture says God is love, and yet you believe that God has no love for most.  God doesn't owe us mercy, this is true, but we know that God wants to show his mercy to all, or else he would not have said he wills that none should perish.  It's interesting that the Jansenists and Feeneyites here condemn us for ignoring scripture all the while ignoring Scripture to come to their distorted views on predestination and election.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Walty - 12-10-2011

This distinction, Melkite, is between God's antecedent will and His consequent will.  Universal salvation is the desire of the former, while the existence of hell pertains to the latter.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Melkite - 12-10-2011

(12-10-2011, 01:13 AM)Walty Wrote: This distinction, Melkite, is between God's antecedent will and His consequent will.  Universal salvation is the desire of the former, while the existence of hell pertains to the latter.

But in a God who exists outside of time, does such a distiction exist outside of abstract conjecture?


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-10-2011

(12-10-2011, 01:17 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(12-10-2011, 01:13 AM)Walty Wrote: This distinction, Melkite, is between God's antecedent will and His consequent will.  Universal salvation is the desire of the former, while the existence of hell pertains to the latter.

But in a God who exists outside of time, does such a distiction exist outside of abstract conjecture?


Christ understood it as more than an abstract conjecture.  He was in our time (as a human) and understood that He willed (antecedently) that all men would return His love, but that some would during their life, on account of their sin (consequently), reject His love and some would reject it even at the end and be damned.  He understood our time because He was in it.  God understands our time and wants us to think in it sometimes, not only in His time which we can not know.