FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Archives (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Theology and Philosophy (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? (/showthread.php?tid=51141)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-12-2011

According to the view presented here, here's what I'm getting at.
All humans are like retards. Your typical image of a mentally challenged person. He runs around screaming and babbling and like Helen Keller in that movie, stabs you with a fork when your trying to teach him how to eat. So God's like, the retard stabbing that person is 100% at fault (notice we would never blame the retard himself.) So God says, he deserves hell because he;s retarded though he can't help it.
So Christ comes, and retards being retarded, they kill Him. So EVEN AFTER THE CROSS, no one can accept Our Lord, because they're retarded. So God then overrides some's free will, and they wake up intelligent creatures and praise God on account of amazing grace, however:
1.) I don't think it's the retards fault they're retarded.
2.) Those who are saved are just robots.
3.) Even though this does make logical sense, this version of God doesn't respect humans, though they are supposed to be 'made in the image and likeness of God'
4.) Augustine agrees with the very convoluted and offensive way of putting it presented above.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-12-2011

http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html
A quick Google search of WHat does the catholic rhuch teach about free will and predestination brings up this page, number one of what the church teaches saying that man can reject or accept God's grace. In my opinion, this is the catholic truth. Even S. Augustine disagrees with this, IMO, and is just a Calvinist saying he's not (a la Thomas, on everything.)


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-12-2011

Enter wiki
Eastern OrthodoxEastern Orthodox Church holds a view different from the Calvinist, Arminian, and Lutheran ones. The difference is in the interpretation of the Original sin, where the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in Total depravity. The Orthodox do not accept the Pelagian view that the original sin did not damage human nature, they accept that the human nature is depraved, but not totally, and they avoid calling it "depraved" preferring "fallen nature".

Orthodox Church holds to the teaching of synergy (συνεργός, meaning working together), which says that man has the freedom to, and must if he wants to be saved, choose to accept and work with the grace of God. The first who defined this teaching was John Cassian, 4th century Church Father, and a pupil of John Chrysostom, and all Eastern Fathers accept it. He taught that "Divine grace is necessary to enable a sinner to return unto God and live, yet man must first, of himself, desire and attempt to choose and obey God", and that "Divine grace is indispensable for salvation, but it does not necessarily need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of human volition, the will can take the initiative toward God.".

Some Orthodox use the parable of a drowning man to plainly illustrate the teaching of synergy: God from the ship throws a rope to a drowning man, pulls him up, saving him, and the man, if he wants to be saved, must hold on tightly to the rope; explaining both that salvation is a gift from God and man cannot save himself, and that man must co-work (syn-ergo) with God in the process of salvation.

Dostoevsky (an Eastern Orthodox Christian) the novelist suggested many arguments for and against free will. Famous arguments are the Grand Inquisitor, Notes from Underground and the argument that suicide, if chosen out of the irrational, was validation of freewill (see Kirilov in the Demons) novel. As for the argument presented in The Brothers Karamazov's section "The Rebellion" that the suffering of innocents was not worth the price of freewill, Dostoevsky appears to propose the idea of Apocatastasis as one possible rational solution.

Roman Catholic teaching
Illustrating as it does that the human part in salvation (represented by holding on to the rope) must be preceded and accompanied by grace (represented by the casting and drawing of the rope), the image of the drowning man holding on to the rope cast and drawn by his rescuer corresponds closely to Catholic teaching, which holds that God, who "destined us in love to be his sons" and "to be conformed to the image of his Son",[43] includes in his eternal plan of "predestination" each person's free response to his grace.[44]

The Catholic Church holds to the teaching that "by free will, (the human person) is capable of directing himself toward his true good … man is endowed with freedom, an outstanding manifestation of the divine image'."[45] Man has free will either to accept or reject the grace of God, so that for salvation "there is a kind of interplay, or synergy, between human freedom and divine grace".[46] "Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: 'When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight' (Council of Trent)."[47]

God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration.[48] For Catholics, therefore, human cooperation with grace is essential.[49] When God establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace, whether it is positive or negative: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place" (Acts 4:27-28).[50]

But the rope analogy is what I've been espousing but I've been called a heretic. and Augustine doesn't agre either but apparently the 'catholic church' disagrees with the man whose teachings 'are Her own."


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-12-2011

Some more thoughts from an Eastern perspective, copy and pasted from Orthodox and Catholics debating on an Orthodox forum:
John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

1 John 4:19
"We love him, because he first loved us."

2 Cor 6:1
"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

Heb 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

As I pointed out, however, there is a significant difference in this between the general view of the East that is exemplified in the writings of John Cassian versus that of Augustine of Hippo. Eastern Christians generally teach that Mankind is not totally depraved by the Fall, that Christ accomplishes salvation for us within Himself, that He consequentially offers that salvation to us, and we, because our will is still free, are able to choose to accept Christ's offer with no prior special grace necessary to enable us to do this, and that our individual salvation begins as a result of our consent to Christ's offer. However, Western Christians, on the basis of the works of Augustine of Hippo, have in contrast speculated that Mankind's freedom of will is actually broken by the Fall, we are totally depraved, and that as a result we cannot even choose to accept Christ's offer of salvation without somehow being enabled by some prior special grace. As I explained, I think this is the basis of why they have categorized us as Semi-Pelagians, as we say that our process of salvation can be initiated of our own choice to accept Christ's offer of salvation, which they view as us actually beginning our own salvation, hence the supposed Semi-Pelagian doctrine by which Man begins His salvation but God completes it and perfects it.

If one reads the writtings of the classical semi-pelagians of the west......like Saint John Cassian, Saint Vincent of Lerins, ...etc. as well as read the local western council of 2nd Orange 529 A.D.....which was against some of the teachings of both Saints John Cassian and Augustine, then one will notice that the classical semi-pelagians believed that prevenient grace was only either for "some" men that come to God or for "most" men that come to God. And this is pretty much why 2nd Orange condemned it. For 2nd Orange tought that prevenient grace was for every man that came to God.

And this is why the term "semi" was used for them. This is what you will find when you read the primary works. The semi-pelagians did come out on top at another local western council some decades earlier around 473 A.D. at the council of Oral...or something like that. It was against a hard Augustinian by the name of Lucian...or Lucianus...or Lugianus....I forgot.

When you combine the two local western councils of Oral 473 A.D. with 2nd Orange 529A.D., then the outcome is the teaching of "operans becoming co-operans".  Which basically means "monergism" will eventually become "synergism" once Divine Grace hits the human will.

In Orthodoxy.......because of Pan-entheism and our Essence vs Energies distinction, our paradigm will automatically be slightly different. God's Divine Energies are everywhere and they permeate everything and so we can't truelly be semi-pelagian even if we wanted to........for God's grace is everywhere, and so our form of synergy is one of simultaneity.

If we had to speak in western terms we could do so, but what we would mean by those same terms would be slightly different.



Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - randomtradguy - 12-12-2011

or in other words: John Cassian's view, mine, isn't actually semi-Pelagian. It looks like it, but isn't. Also, apparently, Orange II is actually not against a supposed semi-Pelagianism I hold to but a view of the same with the exception that GRACE IS ONLY FOR SOME PEOPLE. I'll have to read Orange II to get a better opinion of this.
In any case, Thomas in my opinion walked into a corner and got tangled in semantics and nuance. I shall maintain, till a traditional priest accuses me of dread heresy, that God's will work's with a man's will because IT JUST DOES. And that God is still master of election, even though man can approve his election. I show the Baltimore Catechism:
114. Can we resist the grace of God?
We can resist the grace of God, for our will is free, and God does not force us to accept His grace.Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often I would have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but thou wouldst not! (Matthew 23:37)
115. Why is sanctifying grace necessary for salvation?
Sanctifying grace is necessary for salvation because it is the supernatural life, which alone enables us to attain the supernatural happiness of heaven.
116. Is actual grace necessary for all who have attained the use of reason?
Actual grace is necessary for all who have attained the use of reason, because without it we cannot long resist the power of temptation or perform other actions which merit a reward in heaven.
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything, as from ourselves but our sufficiency is from God. (II Corinthians 3:5)
117. What are the principal ways of obtaining grace?
The principal ways of obtaining grace are prayer and the sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist.
For we were buried with him by means of Baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ has arisen from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we may also walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)
118. How can we make our most ordinary actions merit a heavenly reward?
We can make our most ordinary actions merit a heavenly reward by doing them for the love of God and by keeping ourselves in the state of grace.
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or do anything else, do all for the glory of God. (I Corinthians 10:31)
screw y ou guyz i'm going home


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Parmandur - 12-12-2011

(12-12-2011, 10:08 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html
A quick Google search of WHat does the catholic rhuch teach about free will and predestination brings up this page, number one of what the church teaches saying that man can reject or accept God's grace. In my opinion, this is the catholic truth. Even S. Augustine disagrees with this, IMO, and is just a Calvinist saying he's not (a la Thomas, on everything.)

You know, you are merely making yourself look ignorant of the teachings of St. Augustine (who wrote a dialog called 'On Free Will' that was pro-freedom of the will) and of St. Thomas.  Have you ever read either, at all?  I posted this earlier, but if you are goign to continue ranting against the Angelic Doctor, read it and PAY ATTENTION:

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, Chapter 159 Wrote:we ought to consider that, although one may neither merit in advance nor call forth divine grace by a movement of his free choice, he is able to prevent himself from receiving this grace: Indeed, it is said in Job(21:34): “Who have said to God: Depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of Your ways”; and in Job (24:13): “They have been rebellious to the light.” And since this ability to impede or not to impede the reception of divine grace is within the scope of free choice, not undeservedly is responsibility for the fault imputed to him who offers an impediment to the reception of grace. In fact, as far as He is concerned, God is ready to give grace to all; “indeed He wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” as is said in 1 Timothy (2:4).But those alone are deprived of grace who offer an obstacle within themselves to grace; just as, while the sun is shining on the world, the man who keeps his eyes closed is held responsible for his fault, if as a result some evil follows, even though he could not see unless he were provided in advance with light from the sun.

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles3b.htm#159


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Parmandur - 12-12-2011

And don't trust the Orthodox on St. Augustine.  I have yet to meet a single one who doesn't misunderstand and misrepresent him on basic issues.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Doce Me - 12-12-2011

(12-12-2011, 02:43 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, Chapter 159 Wrote:we ought to consider that, although one may neither merit in advance nor call forth divine grace by a movement of his free choice, he is able to prevent himself from receiving this grace: Indeed, it is said in Job(21:34): “Who have said to God: Depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of Your ways”; and in Job (24:13): “They have been rebellious to the light.” And since this ability to impede or not to impede the reception of divine grace is within the scope of free choice, not undeservedly is responsibility for the fault imputed to him who offers an impediment to the reception of grace. In fact, as far as He is concerned, God is ready to give grace to all; “indeed He wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” as is said in 1 Timothy (2:4).But those alone are deprived of grace who offer an obstacle within themselves to grace; just as, while the sun is shining on the world, the man who keeps his eyes closed is held responsible for his fault, if as a result some evil follows, even though he could not see unless he were provided in advance with light from the sun.

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles3b.htm#159

Thanks for this. 

I believe God gives some people MORE grace  than others (most notably, Our Blessed Mother).  But He makes sufficient (ENOUGH) grace available to each man that he will be saved if he does not resist it.  God provides the help we need to be saved, if we do not resist it.  Any theory (even mine!) of predestination that denies this is missing something.  Christ died for all the grace is there, but not all accept it

I don't  think St. Thomas contradicted himself when he wrote the paragraph I quoted earlier.  But he was speaking theological truths at a more difficult level, looking closer at apparent contradictions.  I don't think these apparent contradictions always need to be discussed to such a level as has been done in this thread.  I think people need to accept simple things:  man does have free will to reject or accept God's help; God does provide sufficient grace for each man;  but the ultimate credit for all our good choices goes to God not man, and salvation comes only from God.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - Vetus Ordo - 12-12-2011

If the Christian people only need to know "simple things" about election and predestination such as the ones you've enunciated (which are incomplete), then St. Paul wouldn't have expounded on this subject so deeply as he did.

The mysteries of faith shouldn't scare us or put us off but rather humble our pride and produce in us awe for God's majesty, mercy and justice.


Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - INPEFESS - 12-12-2011

(12-12-2011, 09:41 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: Indeed, Calvinists should love Augustine.

No, they shouldn't.

Augustine taught conditional reprobation. Calvin taught unconditional reprobation.

Conditional reprobation means that no-one goes to Hell who doesn't freely consent to it via his own free will: reprobation is conditional upon our own consent to it (via placing ourselves in the state of mortal sin). Unconditional reprobation means that one goes to Hell whether he freely consents via his own will or not: reprobation is unconditional upon anything we do.

Augustine taught that God would not cast into Hell someone whose free will had not rejected his own salvation. Calvin left out the role of free will in the question of reprobation and taught that God would see to it that one was damned in spite of his own free will.

This makes a world of difference.