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next time Eastern Orthodox complain of 1204, remind them of 1182 - Printable Version

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Re: next time Eastern Orthodox complain of 1204, remind them of 1182 - TrentCath - 02-05-2012

(02-05-2012, 08:55 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(02-05-2012, 12:09 AM)MeanGene Wrote: I think you're drawing the wrong lesson from the story. St. Thomas realized that all of his life's work was nothing in comparison to the infinite majesty of God. His declaration tells us much more about heaven then it does his own work, because as any sensible person should know, nothing can compare with the infinite majesty of God. In my view it is essentially a lesson in humility. St. Thomas had worked his whole life to become essentially a peerless theologian and philosopher. Yet despite all of that he deemed his work as straw in comparison to heaven. If his work was straw, I can't even imagine what the work of my life would qualify as before the majesty of God. I guess my point is that if you walk away from that story thinking that it proves that St. Thomas' work was overrated you're completely missing the point (and making yourself look silly to boot.)

Yes, that is possible that I'm taking the wrong idea from it.  But did Aquinas say that's why he was burning it?  I don't know a lot about this story, but when I first heard about it a few years ago, I got the impression that he didn't really explain why he did it.  If that's not accurate, so be it.  But if it is, how do you know *you* are taking the right lesson from it?  If you take that story on its face, here's what we know: A man who spent his entire life making detailed scholastic explantions of God and how he relates to the created world then has a mystic experience of God, and decides that his work is straw and, like straw, is good for nothing but burning or bedding.  So do we know what Christ revealed to him in that vision, or did Aquinas keep it private?  If he didn't, and all we know from that point forward is that Aquinas had a revelation that made him decide to burn his works, then it is just a reasonable for me to say he found that his works were in error in comparison to what he had seen as it is for you to say he merely was shown he needed to learn humility, and it would be wrong for you to say you understanding is any better than mine, because you have nothing to corroborate your position over mine.  You merely "feel" that mine isn't the right one.

Also, if your understanding is correct, and his vision was merely showing him that he had barely scratched the surface, there was so much more that he didn't know, such to the point that Aquinas wanted to burn it, even if it's not the main point, it IS showing that the work is overrated, and apparently Christ said so himself.

What twaddle. We know St Thomas Aquinas is mostly right because the church has been unrelenting in its approval of his work, the law itself approves of them and numerous theologians and saints of great weight do. We can rely on that rather than on subjective interpretations of a vision.


Re: next time Eastern Orthodox complain of 1204, remind them of 1182 - Parmandur - 02-05-2012

(02-05-2012, 01:19 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(02-05-2012, 01:12 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: You may not like or understand Thomism, Melkite, but your attitude regarding this subject has been despicable. You act like a schismatic.

The Church herself has made a definite pronouncement regarding St. Thomas' work. Do you accept it, at least in principle, like her obedient son or do you rebel against it and mock it like a son of Satan?

Let me translate that into English:  :'(

How can something be accepted in principle if it's not accepted in practice?  What very little I have read of Aquinas, I have either found worded badly or outright objectionable.  But, for the vast majority that I still haven't read first hand, of course I admit it is possible there is nothing wrong with it.

Well, to be fair, you have to be educated in Scholastic method to really get the structure of the Summa, in particular.  And it is clearer in Latin (the clearest Latin ever, pretty much).  Certainly disagreeing with St. Thomas is fine, I do it all the time.  But he is the pinnacle of theological discourse, precisely because he was not a jerk and took every argument with deadly seriousness.   You could learn a lot from him, on a personal level, rather than a Scholastic level.  This story I find particularly moving, an Eastern Orthodox man who stopped being an abortionist due to St. Thomas influence: http://thomasfortoday.blogspot.com/2008/11/st-thomas-converts-abortionist.html


Re: next time Eastern Orthodox complain of 1204, remind them of 1182 - Melkite - 02-05-2012

(02-05-2012, 01:32 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Well, to be fair, you have to be educated in Scholastic method to really get the structure of the Summa, in particular.  And it is clearer in Latin (the clearest Latin ever, pretty much).  Certainly disagreeing with St. Thomas is fine, I do it all the time.  But he is the pinnacle of theological discourse, precisely because he was not a jerk and took every argument with deadly seriousness.   You could learn a lot from him, on a personal level, rather than a Scholastic level.  This story I find particularly moving, an Eastern Orthodox man who stopped being an abortionist due to St. Thomas influence: http://thomasfortoday.blogspot.com/2008/11/st-thomas-converts-abortionist.html

I'll give that a read when I get some free time.  Aquinas may have been the fairest in considering every argument seriously, but that doesn't make him a pinnacle.  He would be a pinnacle if he were right on virtually everything he argued, and if he did so with an eloquence and to a degree that far surpassed any thinker before him, then that would make him a pinnacle.  And yes, I'm well aware that his followers already believe that of him, in much the same way Ron Paul can do or say no wrong to his.


Re: next time Eastern Orthodox complain of 1204, remind them of 1182 - TrentCath - 02-05-2012

(02-05-2012, 06:10 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(02-05-2012, 01:32 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Well, to be fair, you have to be educated in Scholastic method to really get the structure of the Summa, in particular.  And it is clearer in Latin (the clearest Latin ever, pretty much).  Certainly disagreeing with St. Thomas is fine, I do it all the time.  But he is the pinnacle of theological discourse, precisely because he was not a jerk and took every argument with deadly seriousness.   You could learn a lot from him, on a personal level, rather than a Scholastic level.  This story I find particularly moving, an Eastern Orthodox man who stopped being an abortionist due to St. Thomas influence: http://thomasfortoday.blogspot.com/2008/11/st-thomas-converts-abortionist.html

I'll give that a read when I get some free time.  Aquinas may have been the fairest in considering every argument seriously, but that doesn't make him a pinnacle.  He would be a pinnacle if he were right on virtually everything he argued, and if he did so with an eloquence and to a degree that far surpassed any thinker before him, then that would make him a pinnacle.  And yes, I'm well aware that his followers already believe that of him, in much the same way Ron Paul can do or say no wrong to his.

I guess by his follower you mean Canon law and Popes John XXII, St Pius V, St Pius X, Benedict XIII, Leo XIII, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII, John Paul II and Benedict XVI? As well as St Francis de Sales, St Philip Neri, St Charles Borromeo, St Vincent Ferrer and St Antoninus? Not to mention the fact his teaching was applied, sometimes verbatim, by the Councils of Lyons, Florence and the first Vatican Council

Those Aquinarians, they're everywhere, even in the law!  :LOL:


Re: next time Eastern Orthodox complain of 1204, remind them of 1182 - Vetus Ordo - 02-05-2012

Melkite,

If anyone here called St. John Chrysostom's, or St. Gregory Nazianzen's, or St. Basil's theological work "bullshit," you'd rightly reprimand them, wouldn't you? At least, I'd expect you to do so.

Your behaviour towards St. Thomas Aquinas is incomprehensible and despicable. Unlike other theologians, his system has been clearly adopted by the Church as her own. Deal with it.