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Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Printable Version

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Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Traditional Guy - 12-23-2011

Our 'modern' Catholic, that is those who have not fallen away and actually believe in Vatican II, makes this argument: "Well it wasn't the Second Vatican Council that caused this crisis in the Church but our sick culture these days ever since the 1960's." The problem with this answer is that it fails to understand that the modern world has always had a 'crisis' that is against God and His Church but the Church was always the one who took the moral high ground. The 1950's was full of sexual immorality even before the sexual revolution. There are many other examples of immorality through history but the Church always had the Truth to fight against the liberalism and modernism of the modern world.

With Vatican II however the Church tried to meet down the middle and tried to make itself relevant in an immoral age. In doing so however many Catholics became disillusioned and left the Church, as the converts had no real reason to convert because of 'ecumenism,' the beauty of the Mass to get us out of our immoral world was gone with the 'new architecture' and high irreverence in the liturgy, nuns were told their earlier sacrifices were unnecessary so they criticized the patriarchal Church.

The priests and bishops meanwhile taught to preach the good word of the Gospel failed to stop or denounce the masturbation and fornication of our teens and young adults, just as the old people go to Mass just for 'looks' and 'keeping with tradition' not actual prayer, and the married couples contracept their way out childbearing and child-rearing. But if the laity was bad the clergy was even worse letting this happen and making irrelevant sermons. Can we not see the fall of faith in Catholics hit a high point at the conclusion of Vatican II?


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Someone1776 - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:05 PM)Traditional Guy Wrote: Our 'modern' Catholic, that is those who have not fallen away and actually believe in Vatican II make this argument: "Well it wasn't the Second Vatican Council that caused this crisis in the Church but our sick culture these days ever since the 1960's." The problem with this answer is that it fails to understand that the modern world has always had a 'crisis' that is against God and His Church but the Church was always the one who took the moral high ground. The 1950's was full of sexual immorality even before the sexual revolution. There are many other examples of immorality through history but the Church always had the Truth to fight against the liberalism and modernism of the modern world.

With Vatican II however the Church tried to meet down the middle and tried to make itself relevant in an immoral age. In doing so however many Catholics became disillusioned and left the Church, as the converts had no real reason to convert because of 'ecumenism,' the beauty of the Mass to get us out of our immoral world was gone with the 'new architecture' and high irreverence in the liturgy, nuns were told their earlier sacrifices were unnecessary so they criticized the patriarchal Church, the priests and bishops taught to preach the good word of the Gospel failed to stop or denounce the masturbation and fornication of our teens and young adults, just as the old people go to Mass just for 'looks' and 'keeping with tradition' not actual prayer, and the married couples contracept their way out childbearing and child-rearing. [Holy run on sentence, Batman!]

But if the laity was bad the clergy was even worse letting this happen and making irrelevant sermons. Can we not see the fall of faith in Catholics hit a high point at the conclusion of Vatican II?

I hate to be that person, but that was so horribly written most people aren't going to read it and miss any points you have to make.  Paragraphs are your friends and sentences that have no end are not.  I know this is a forum and we write informally here, but that was so poorly written it prevented the communication of any ideas you had to share.   


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Tim - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:05 PM)Traditional Guy Wrote: Our 'modern' Catholic, that is those who have not fallen away and actually believe in Vatican II, makes this argument: "Well it wasn't the Second Vatican Council that caused this crisis in the Church but our sick culture these days ever since the 1960's." The problem with this answer is that it fails to understand that the modern world has always had a 'crisis' that is against God and His Church but the Church was always the one who took the moral high ground. The 1950's was full of sexual immorality even before the sexual revolution. There are many other examples of immorality through history but the Church always had the Truth to fight against the liberalism and modernism of the modern world.

With Vatican II however the Church tried to meet down the middle and tried to make itself relevant in an immoral age. In doing so however many Catholics became disillusioned and left the Church, as the converts had no real reason to convert because of 'ecumenism,' the beauty of the Mass to get us out of our immoral world was gone with the 'new architecture' and high irreverence in the liturgy, nuns were told their earlier sacrifices were unnecessary so they criticized the patriarchal Church.


The priests and bishops meanwhile taught to preach the good word of the Gospel failed to stop or denounce the masturbation and fornication of our teens and young adults, just as the old people go to Mass just for 'looks' and 'keeping with tradition' not actual prayer, and the married couples contracept their way out childbearing and child-rearing. But if the laity was bad the clergy was even worse letting this happen and making irrelevant sermons. Can we not see the fall of faith in Catholics hit a high point at the conclusion of Vatican II?

I high lighted this because it is over the top completely. Certainly there was Adultery, fornication, masturbation, pederasty, and pornography, but really do you think it was as bad as now ? It's simple to look at out of wedlock births, and because there was no pill, to find this wasn't so.  Pornography was girls in swimsuits in Argosy, Soldier of Fortune, and Stag, pretty tame compared to snuff videos. Pederasts were corralled to their places, taverns or bath houses, and not at all in the main stream.  If you mean there was sin, then I agree, if you mean the 50's were any where near the immorality of today, that ain't so.

tim



Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Traditional Guy - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:30 PM)Tim Wrote:
(12-23-2011, 09:05 PM)Traditional Guy Wrote: Our 'modern' Catholic, that is those who have not fallen away and actually believe in Vatican II, makes this argument: "Well it wasn't the Second Vatican Council that caused this crisis in the Church but our sick culture these days ever since the 1960's." The problem with this answer is that it fails to understand that the modern world has always had a 'crisis' that is against God and His Church but the Church was always the one who took the moral high ground. The 1950's was full of sexual immorality even before the sexual revolution. There are many other examples of immorality through history but the Church always had the Truth to fight against the liberalism and modernism of the modern world.

With Vatican II however the Church tried to meet down the middle and tried to make itself relevant in an immoral age. In doing so however many Catholics became disillusioned and left the Church, as the converts had no real reason to convert because of 'ecumenism,' the beauty of the Mass to get us out of our immoral world was gone with the 'new architecture' and high irreverence in the liturgy, nuns were told their earlier sacrifices were unnecessary so they criticized the patriarchal Church.


The priests and bishops meanwhile taught to preach the good word of the Gospel failed to stop or denounce the masturbation and fornication of our teens and young adults, just as the old people go to Mass just for 'looks' and 'keeping with tradition' not actual prayer, and the married couples contracept their way out childbearing and child-rearing. But if the laity was bad the clergy was even worse letting this happen and making irrelevant sermons. Can we not see the fall of faith in Catholics hit a high point at the conclusion of Vatican II?

I high lighted this because it is over the top completely. Certainly there was Adultery, fornication, masturbation, pederasty, and pornography, but really do you think it was as bad as now ? It's simple to look at out of wedlock births, and because there was no pill, to find this wasn't so.  Pornography was girls in swimsuits in Argosy, Soldier of Fortune, and Stag, pretty tame compared to snuff videos. Pederasts were corralled to their places, taverns or bath houses, and not at all in the main stream.  If you mean there was sin, then I agree, if you mean the 50's were any where near the immorality of today, that ain't so.

tim
I never said it was as bad as it is now, my only point being the 1950's was not a utopia.


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - jovan66102 - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:30 PM)Tim Wrote: Pornography was girls in swimsuits in .... Soldier of Fortune...

tim

The first issue of SoF was published in 1975.


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Nic - 12-23-2011

I am of the firm opinion that the problems in the world today due to loss of morality is completely the Church's fault.  Remember, the Church is the guiding light of the world.  When that light no longer shines properly, the entire world is left in darkness.  The Church at Vatican II eclipsed the light, and we are still suffering the confusion of darkness because of it.  If the Liberals/Masons/Modernists had never usurped the ecclesiastical structure of the Church and Vatican II never went down, there is no doubt in my mind that we would be living in a drastically different world.


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Traditional Guy - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:40 PM)Nic Wrote: I am of the firm opinion that the problems in the world today due to loss of morality is completely the Church's fault.  Remember, the Church is the guiding light of the world.  When that light no longer shines properly, the entire world is left in darkness.  The Church at Vatican II eclipsed the light, and we are still suffering the confusion of darkness because of it.  If the Liberals/Masons/Modernists had never usurped the ecclesiastical structure of the Church and Vatican II never went down, there is no doubt in my mind that we would be living in a drastically different world.
This might be putting a little too much fault at the Church's feet since the sexual revolution, the counterculture, the drug revolution, etc. was already in the making by the time of Vatican II but I do agree that the Church could have taken the moral high ground and taken a stance against the immoral world. Instead they wanted to find a 'cold peace' by trying to 'modernize the Church' but still keep 'in step with Tradition' which is impossible.


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Nic - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:42 PM)Traditional Guy Wrote:
(12-23-2011, 09:40 PM)Nic Wrote: I am of the firm opinion that the problems in the world today due to loss of morality is completely the Church's fault.  Remember, the Church is the guiding light of the world.  When that light no longer shines properly, the entire world is left in darkness.  The Church at Vatican II eclipsed the light, and we are still suffering the confusion of darkness because of it.  If the Liberals/Masons/Modernists had never usurped the ecclesiastical structure of the Church and Vatican II never went down, there is no doubt in my mind that we would be living in a drastically different world.
This might be putting a little too much fault at the Church's feet since the sexual revolution, the counterculture, the drug revolution, etc. was already in the making by the time of Vatican II but I do agree that the Church could have taken the moral high ground and taken a stance against the immoral world. Instead they wanted to find a 'cold peace' by trying to 'modernize the Church' but still keep 'in step with Tradition' which is impossible.

Pornography, drugs and many, many evils have ALWAYS been "in the making," but the light of the Church kept the darkness at bay.  When the light no longer shines, darkness prevails.


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - Traditional Guy - 12-23-2011

(12-23-2011, 09:46 PM)Nic Wrote:
(12-23-2011, 09:42 PM)Traditional Guy Wrote:
(12-23-2011, 09:40 PM)Nic Wrote: I am of the firm opinion that the problems in the world today due to loss of morality is completely the Church's fault.  Remember, the Church is the guiding light of the world.  When that light no longer shines properly, the entire world is left in darkness.  The Church at Vatican II eclipsed the light, and we are still suffering the confusion of darkness because of it.  If the Liberals/Masons/Modernists had never usurped the ecclesiastical structure of the Church and Vatican II never went down, there is no doubt in my mind that we would be living in a drastically different world.
This might be putting a little too much fault at the Church's feet since the sexual revolution, the counterculture, the drug revolution, etc. was already in the making by the time of Vatican II but I do agree that the Church could have taken the moral high ground and taken a stance against the immoral world. Instead they wanted to find a 'cold peace' by trying to 'modernize the Church' but still keep 'in step with Tradition' which is impossible.

Pornography, drugs and many, many evils have ALWAYS been "in the making," but the light of the Church kept the darkness at bay.  When the light no longer shines, darkness prevails.
I agree. The Church is still looking for that Athanasius to restore it to Tradition and get rid of the heresy of modernism. It has yet to find such a man.


Re: Our 'modern' Catholic response to the Traditionalist criticism of Vatican II.... - thealtonroute - 12-31-2011

The Catholic Church has been rife with corruption since at least the 1930s/40s.  The lavender mafia already had been established years before Vatican II.  According to Randy Engel, the lavender boys were already in Boston in the early 1900s after the rise of Cardinal O'Connell.  Vatican II merely sealed the fate of a Church rotting to pieces from corruption and destroyed what good was left in the Church.  What a shame.