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Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Printable Version

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Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Spencer - 01-17-2012

(01-17-2012, 07:49 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: EENS is a dogma of the Church. Understanding what that means, exactly, is where the problems lie.

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, and the Catholic Church is His Mystical Body. Since there is no entering into the Catholic Church of Christ without the Sacrament of Baptism, this means that only baptized Catholics who die in the state of grace (and those who become baptized Catholics and die in the state of grace) can hope to be saved – period.




Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Spencer - 01-17-2012

(01-17-2012, 07:23 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 07:14 PM)Spencer Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 03:39 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 11:18 AM)Spencer Wrote:
(12-30-2011, 09:00 PM)FatherCekada Wrote:
(12-30-2011, 07:06 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: Hi Father. How would the Dimonds or other Feeneyites respond to what you state here? A response would be appreciated, as recently, Feeneyites writings and my own scrupulosity has had me in the dumps for a while (due to scruples on Baptisn of Desire and Blood, invincible ignorance, implicit faith, as well as scruples that the Dimonds et al. may be correct.)

I first published the linked article ten years ago, and no one in the Feeneyite camp that I know of has come up with a serious response.

The difficulty in doing so is that both points of the argument are very clear. (1) Pius IX laid down the general principle (on the categories of teaching Catholics are obliged to adhere to) and (2) the teachings of Catholic theologians on baptism of blood and baptism of desire (I cite 26, including St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus) fall into that category.

So  you need have no fear that the Dimonds, etc. may be correct, because the conclusion that flows from (1) and (2) is ironclad, and cannot be overcome except by rejecting the fundamental principles of theological science.

And if you have scruple problems, you may want to look at a short article I wrote on it a very long time ago. Many people have found it very helpful.

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=4&catname=9

You are lucky to be in Philly. It's impossible to get a real Italian meal here in Cinci!

Your article has been completely refuted by Br. Michael Diamond. For those of you willing to hear the truth,  I would highly recommend reading Diamonds rebuttal to Fr. Cekada's erroneous proposition. You will clearly see Fr. Cekada has completely perverted the very principles he applies, has misled his readership and is contradicted by the authorities he quotes.

Attached you will find the rebuttal.

Yeah, let's all listen to some false "monk" heretics.  That's a good plan.   :eyeroll:

Following EENS, Michael Dimond is on a path for Hell.  Listening to his thoughts on the topic is paradoxical.

Following a defined dogma of the faith "Michael dimond is on a path for hell".
Thats nonsense.

For those outside of the Catholic Church, there is no salvation.
Michael Dimond has put himself outside of the Catholic Church.

Ergo...


How did Michael Dimond put himself outside of the Catholic Church?


Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Parmandur - 01-17-2012

(01-17-2012, 10:46 PM)Spencer Wrote: How did Michael Dimond put himself outside of the Catholic Church?

:eyeroll:


Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Spencer - 01-17-2012

(01-17-2012, 07:49 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: EENS is a dogma of the Church. Understanding what that means, exactly, is where the problems lie.

The Dogma:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those
existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and
schismatics
can become participants in eternal life, but they will depart ‘into
everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41],
unless before the end of life they have been added to the flock; and that the unity
of this ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that only for those
who abide in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and
do fasts, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of a Christian
soldier produce eternal rewards. No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced,
even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has
persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”


Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Geremia - 06-13-2014

I wonder if there's another FCC or other governmental law against the deceptive usage of the title "Catholic" in their YouTube channel named "VaticanCatholic.com"? (I know there is a canon law regarding this, but I doubt YouTube accepts canon law. :))


Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Geremia - 06-13-2014

Fr. Harrison's and Fr. Terra's leaked phone conversations were still up.


Go here:
https://support.google.com/youtube/contact/otherlegal?v=pH3yiwKaduA&hl=en

Put these URLs:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR7Q6iSHMJnZ5hJJfyZqPtQ https://www.youtube.com/user/mhfm1

Their channel name:
vaticancatholic.com

Cite the FCC law:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/pdf/47cfr73.1206.pdf

I already did, but if you do, too, they'll probably take the videos down sooner.


Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - Geremia - 06-18-2014

So, I submitted a complain, but they just kept responding with a form letter saying the video does not violate YouTube Community Guidlines. I kept trying to tell them it violates federal FCC law, but they don't care.

Were you able to get them to remove some of the videos, Fr. Cekada? How did you finally convince them?

thanks


Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - VoxClamantis - 06-18-2014

(01-17-2012, 10:44 PM)Spencer Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 07:49 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: EENS is a dogma of the Church. Understanding what that means, exactly, is where the problems lie.

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, and the Catholic Church is His Mystical Body. Since there is no entering into the Catholic Church of Christ without the Sacrament of Baptism, this means that only baptized Catholics who die in the state of grace (and those who become baptized Catholics and die in the state of grace) can hope to be saved – period.

You're ignoring "Baptism of Blood" and "Baptism of Desire."  You can disbelieve in those concepts if you want, obviously, but you'd be going against a lot of theologians who disagree with your stricter take on the subject.  Even Abp Lefebvre thought otherwise:

Abp Lefebvre Wrote:"We must say it clearly: such a concept is radically opposed to Catholic dogma. The Church is the one ark of salvation, and we must not be afraid to affirm it. You have often heard it said, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"--a dictum which offends contemporary minds. It is easy to believe that this doctrine is no longer in effect, that it has been dropped. It seems excessively severe.

Yet nothing, in fact, has changed; nothing can be changed in this area. Our Lord did not found a number of churches: He founded only One. There is only one Cross by which we can be saved, and that Cross has been given to the Catholic Church. It has not been given to others. To His Church, His mystical bride, Christ has given all graces. No grace in the world, no grace in the history of humanity is distributed except through her.

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth."(Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics)

------------------------------------------------


Archbishop Lefebvre, "Against the Heresies," pages 216-217, on Proposition #16 of the Syllabus of Errors, in which Pope Pius IX condemned the following statement: "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation":

"Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God — God in so far as these people can conceive Him — and who want to accomplish His will. There certainly are not many such persons, because these people, not being baptized, suffer more than Christians the effects of original sin. But some of these persons make an act of love, which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved. Implicit baptism means the Church: by the very fact that baptism of desire is found implicitly in their act of charity and submission to God these persons belong to the Church. They are saved by the Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ. For there is baptism of water, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (that of catechumens), then baptism of implicit desire, which is contained in an act of true love of God. How many are saved by this form of baptism? God alone knows. It is a great mystery for us. One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions, but if he is saved, it is always by his attachment to the mystical body which is the Catholic Church, even if the persons concerned do not know it."

There's also this, from Pope Pius IX's Quanto Conficiamur Moerore :

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]


And there's this, from Pope Pius XII's Mystici Corporis:

103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ"[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.