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Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Printable Version

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Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - SouthpawLink - 12-30-2011

Stubborn Wrote:Dying in the state of grace is via BOD may or may not suffice for salvation. As it is now, the Church teaches it suffices for grace and justification. THAT is all She has ever taught infallibly. Never anywhere has She ever infallibly taught that one who dies unbaptized goes to heaven.

That's just the truth of the matter.

Your admittance that BOD brings with it sanctifying grace and justification proves my -- and the Church's -- argument:

Pope St. Pius V, Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus: A man with perfect charity has his sins remitted (Denz.1031f.).  Justification brings with it the remission of sins (Denz. 1043).  Perfect charity cannot exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation (Denz. 1070).

Thus, a man with perfect charity has his sins remitted and so is justified.  A justified man (he with perfect charity) does not have the guilt of eternal damnation.  So what happens to those who die justified and in the state of grace?  Trent teaches:

"We we must believe that to those justified nothing more is wanting from being considered [can. 32] as having satisfied the divine law by those works which have been done in God according to the state of this life, and as having truly merited eternal life to be obtained in its own time (if they shall have departed this life in grace)" (Sess. VI, ch. xvi: Denz. 809).

Dying justified and in the state of grace merits eternal life.  Case closed.


P.S. - I disagree with the contention that there are numerous definitions of BOD.  Find some good pre-Vatican II catechisms and theology manuals and you'll come across a very consistent and coherent understanding of BOD.

"The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, X).  Every definition is going to include perfect contrition/charity (as the Holy Office clearly showed).  More explicit definitions include the desire to do God's will and all that's necessary for salvation.


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Stubborn - 12-30-2011

(12-29-2011, 10:24 PM)Jenn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:10 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: Jenn,
Why would Trent ever use the phrase "desire for them" in reference to the sacraments if it wasn't interested in introducing any mitigation into their doctrine, and one that previously existed to boot.


Does it not stand to reason that men who receive the sacraments should also have a "desire for them?" The missionaries had to be extremely careful. They were not to be baptizing anyone unless they were as sure as they could be that the potential convert was a true believer. In short, they had to desire to be baptized (I have to wonder why the missionaries put themselves at risk of being eaten alive or roasted over a spit if BOD would have sufficed, but I digress..). That one phrase keeps popping up in these discussions as though the word "desire" means that BOD has been formally defined. Doesn't it matter that true and natural water has been formally defined? I simply don't understand the disconnect. The statement "true and natural water" is there in plain English for anyone to read.

Quote:CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

How do you reconcile your interpretation of the above with this:

"If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for Baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,' let him be anathema."

As I've mentioned before, if anyone can point me to the formally defined dogma of BOD, I'm all eyes. As is customary during this debate, there are endless posts explaining to me why I should not take this infallible statement at face value. That I simply am not understanding it, or I'm reading it all wrong, or I don't have the training to read it "in context". In short, I am being told that Trent didn't mean to say exactly what it DID say, so I shouldn't take it too seriously. Obviously, I reject those assertions.

Well said Jenn, clearly written and easily understood!  :clap:


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Stubborn - 12-30-2011

(12-30-2011, 01:30 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
Stubborn Wrote:Dying in the state of grace is via BOD may or may not suffice for salvation. As it is now, the Church teaches it suffices for grace and justification. THAT is all She has ever taught infallibly. Never anywhere has She ever infallibly taught that one who dies unbaptized goes to heaven.

That's just the truth of the matter.

Your admittance that BOD brings with it sanctifying grace and justification proves my -- and the Church's -- argument:

Pope St. Pius V, Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus: A man with perfect charity has his sins remitted (Denz.1031f.).  Justification brings with it the remission of sins (Denz. 1043).  Perfect charity cannot exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation (Denz. 1070).

Thus, a man with perfect charity has his sins remitted and so is justified.  A justified man (he with perfect charity) does not have the guilt of eternal damnation.  So what happens to those who die justified and in the state of grace?  Trent teaches:

"We we must believe that to those justified nothing more is wanting from being considered [can. 32] as having satisfied the divine law by those works which have been done in God according to the state of this life, and as having truly merited eternal life to be obtained in its own time (if they shall have departed this life in grace)" (Sess. VI, ch. xvi: Denz. 809).

Dying justified and in the state of grace merits eternal life.  Case closed.

Case not closed, the quote you provided is speaking about one already baptized, the bolded paragraph is speaking about the sacrament of penance.

If you start at Ch XIV it might be more clear to you - your Ch XVI begins with: Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost....... What is meant by "In this manner", is the Sacrament of Penance from the previous chapters and the paragraph continues talking about the Sacrament, not the desire for baptism.




Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - SouthpawLink - 12-30-2011

Stubborn,
Are you now arguing that a man cannot be justified without receiving the actual sacrament, viz. Penance?  Because Trent says otherwise:

"The Council teaches, furthermore, that though it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect because of charity and reconciles man to God, before this sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation nevertheless must not be ascribed to the contrition itself without the desire of the sacrament which is included in it" (Trent, Sess. XIV, ch. iv: Denz. 898.).

Or are you arguing that there two different states of justification, one for the baptized and one for catechumens?  Please show me where the Church teaches this, if this is indeed your claim.

A man dying with perfect charity dies justified, in the state of grace and thus merits eternal life.  Even Trent states that the final cause of justification is the glory of God and eternal life (cf. Sess. VI, ch. vii: Denz. 799).  You've already admitted that an unbaptized man can be justified and in the state of grace.  That's the Catholic version of "being saved."


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Vetus Ordo - 12-30-2011

If "baptism of desire" is a substitute for true baptism, then how about the other sacraments?

Can I marry by desire? By ordained by desire? Receive last rites by desire?, etc.


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - SouthpawLink - 12-30-2011

(12-30-2011, 10:04 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: If "baptism of desire" is a substitute for true baptism, then how about the other sacraments?

Can I marry by desire? By ordained by desire? Receive last rites by desire?, etc.

If the sacrament of Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, then don't all other sacraments leave an indelible mark?

If Extreme Unction can be given more than once, then cannot all of the other sacraments as well?

There's something to be said for distinctions, because Catholic theology is full of them.

To answer your question more directly, the sacraments of Baptism and Penance can be desired:

"If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them..." (Sess. VII, can. iv: Denz. 847).  See also Denz. 796 and 898.


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Vetus Ordo - 12-30-2011

So one can be married by desire or not?

Or does the desire only function as a substitute for the real thing when it comes to baptism and penance?


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - SouthpawLink - 12-30-2011

(12-30-2011, 11:11 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: So one can be married by desire or not?

Or does the desire only function as a substitute for the real thing when it comes to baptism and penance?

No, not that I'm aware of.

In so far as I know, yes.


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Vetus Ordo - 12-30-2011

It's an interesting theological construct then.

It would seem that if the sincere desire to get baptised or to confess suffice for the sacrament, it would be applicable to the other five as well. I don't see why not.


Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - Crusading Philologist - 12-30-2011

Well, baptism and confession are the bare minimum necessary for salvation.