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Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - Parmandur - 01-25-2012

This is an article about the Neo-Conservative movement proper: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/magazine/neo.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - Warrenton - 01-26-2012

(01-23-2012, 12:30 AM)alphonsusjr Wrote: What do you think? I'm now reading his Revolution and Counter-Revolution, and it strikes me as brilliant and right.

I had not heard about TFP before.  And, I have not finished Rev and Counter Rev.  However, Oliviera is certainly correct that something positive must be done to stop the ongoing disestablishment of Christendom.  Further, he is correct that this positive action will for all intents and purposes be in the nature of a revolution.

The first step in any revolution is the simple act of non-cooperation.  We cannot, for example, change in an instant the New Mass.  However, each of us can refuse to cooperate in the process of its becoming still newer.  The second step is to provide an alternative to the status quo, and attending the traditional mass and supporting its growth fulfills that element.

The terminal steps concern striking the blow that topples the status quo, and this is a function of strength.  While it is possible to strike such a blow when one is outnumbered, as proved by the Spanish Civil War, usually it ends in failure.  Traditionalists are confined to asymmetrical relations with the Church and society for the foreseeable future, and the question is how to keep the faith and the revolutionary spirit alive during this period.  As the Church's own history shows, this period can last for centuries - one thinks of the long yeras between the Ascension of Christ and the ascension of Constantine to the throne.  Though modern people are loathe to admit it, the early Church worked ceaselessly to bring about the day when the emporer himself would acknowledge the reign of Christ. 


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - Crusader1095 - 01-26-2012

(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Revolution and Counter-Revolution at first glance just seems to be conservatism sprinkled with Catholicism. It's much more than that. Plinio and the TFP present their ideas in such a way that what they seem to be offering, isn't what they are really offering.  Plinio and the TFP's goal is to advance the idea that people are inherently unequal. They aren't defending the present class structure or the idea that people are unequal by ability.  They believe that certain people are from birth born with qualities that make them better than vast majority of the population and that these people are who should govern society and the Church.  Thus, Plinio and the TFP never complained much about Vatican II or the Novus Ordo because they aren't the problem.  The problem is that peasants like Saint Pius X got elected Pope.  If the Church had simply continued to elect pontiffs from established families everything would be so much better in the Church.  Likewise, the problem in society is the proper kind of people aren't leading society.  I need to stress again...they believe class is a bigger problem today in the Church than Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, and modernist theology. 

Could you please provide some quotes from the book to prove your points? I have a hard time believing that a book praised by numerous Ecclesiastics, canonists, and theologians would contain such outlandish ideas. Furthermore, I've read it more than once, and never read anything like you are saying.




Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - alphonsusjr - 01-26-2012

(01-26-2012, 07:54 PM)Crusader1095 Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Revolution and Counter-Revolution at first glance just seems to be conservatism sprinkled with Catholicism. It's much more than that. Plinio and the TFP present their ideas in such a way that what they seem to be offering, isn't what they are really offering.  Plinio and the TFP's goal is to advance the idea that people are inherently unequal. They aren't defending the present class structure or the idea that people are unequal by ability.  They believe that certain people are from birth born with qualities that make them better than vast majority of the population and that these people are who should govern society and the Church.  Thus, Plinio and the TFP never complained much about Vatican II or the Novus Ordo because they aren't the problem.  The problem is that peasants like Saint Pius X got elected Pope.  If the Church had simply continued to elect pontiffs from established families everything would be so much better in the Church.  Likewise, the problem in society is the proper kind of people aren't leading society.  I need to stress again...they believe class is a bigger problem today in the Church than Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, and modernist theology. 

Could you please provide some quotes from the book to prove your points? I have a hard time believing that a book praised by numerous Ecclesiastics, canonists, and theologians would contain such outlandish ideas. Furthermore, I've read it more than once, and never read anything like you are saying.

Yes, I'm now on pg. 70 and am having difficulty seeing the truth of Someone's charges.


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - mikemac - 01-26-2012

(01-25-2012, 02:02 PM)FishFriday Wrote:
(01-24-2012, 02:21 AM)mikemac Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Their America Needs Fatima sister organization won't publicly say what their view of the consecration of Russia is. 

That's right.  I have been receiving e-mail from America Needs Fatima for over a year after signing an ANF petition that was posted in this forum and they have yet to mention anything about the consecration of Russia.  Not one thing.

This is on the America Needs Fatima website and addresses the consecration question saying that any consecration after 1939 was too late. That would explain why they don't make a big deal about it.

http://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Articles/fatima-more-urgent-redo.html

Thanks FishFriday.  I understand now.  Quote from that ANF page.
Quote:In a letter to Father Gonçalves, dated May 18, 1936, the seer narrates a locution she had from Our Lord regarding the same:

The Holy Father. Pray very much for the Holy Father. He will do [the consecration to Russia], but it will be too late. Nevertheless, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will save Russia. It has been entrusted to Her.

Every other web site about Fatima that quotes those lines read like this; "Pray very much for the Holy Father! He will do it, but it will be late."

Another quote from that ANF page.
Quote:Like the king of France they will repent and do so, but it will be too late.

Every other web site about Fatima that quotes that line reads like this; "Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late."

Do you see the difference?  It's small, but it's huge.  This is what Our Lord Himself said to Sister Lucy.  By adding the one word "too" to Our Lord's quotes those two times America Needs Fatima and Robert Ritchie are distorting the entire Message of Fatima and Our Lord's words.  Shame on them.  God help them.

Why do you think Sister Lucy said to do the consecration by 1960 at the latest?  Why do you think Pope Benedict said less than two years ago that he may have to do the consecration?

A proper consecration of Russia still needs to happen.  The Fatima Message was not just for the salvation of Catholic souls but the whole world.  How is it going to save Russia without Russia's conversion to the Catholic Faith?  The French King was asked by Heaven to consecrate France to Our Lord's Sacred Heart.  He hadn't done it in 100 years then came the French Revolution.  If we go by the same 100 year time line then the Pope along with all the bishops have until 2017, or 2029 if you go by when Sister Lucy was told to ask the Pope for the consecration.

I have a notion to believe what Someone1776  has to say about Revolution and Counter-Revolution without even reading it.  Elitism has a tendency to encourage revolution.  It did in the French Revolution and also the Communist Russian Revolution.  We need to be careful about this in North America too, both in the States and Canada.  That is what communists wait for; unrest to spark a revolution.  Nothing will encourage unrest more than elitism.         


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - verenaerin - 01-26-2012

(01-26-2012, 10:04 PM)mikemac Wrote:
(01-25-2012, 02:02 PM)FishFriday Wrote:
(01-24-2012, 02:21 AM)mikemac Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Their America Needs Fatima sister organization won't publicly say what their view of the consecration of Russia is. 

That's right.  I have been receiving e-mail from America Needs Fatima for over a year after signing an ANF petition that was posted in this forum and they have yet to mention anything about the consecration of Russia.  Not one thing.

This is on the America Needs Fatima website and addresses the consecration question saying that any consecration after 1939 was too late. That would explain why they don't make a big deal about it.

http://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Articles/fatima-more-urgent-redo.html

Thanks FishFriday.  I understand now.  Quote from that ANF page.
Quote:In a letter to Father Gonçalves, dated May 18, 1936, the seer narrates a locution she had from Our Lord regarding the same:

The Holy Father. Pray very much for the Holy Father. He will do [the consecration to Russia], but it will be too late. Nevertheless, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will save Russia. It has been entrusted to Her.

Every other web site about Fatima that quotes those lines read like this; "Pray very much for the Holy Father! He will do it, but it will be late."

Another quote from that ANF page.
Quote:Like the king of France they will repent and do so, but it will be too late.

Every other web site about Fatima that quotes that line reads like this; "Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late."

Do you see the difference?  It's small, but it's huge.  This is what Our Lord Himself said to Sister Lucy.  By adding the one word "too" to Our Lord's quotes those two times America Needs Fatima and Robert Ritchie are distorting the entire Message of Fatima and Our Lord's words.  Shame on them.  God help them.

Why do you think Sister Lucy said to do the consecration by 1960 at the latest?  Why do you think Pope Benedict said less than two years ago that he may have to do the consecration?

The consecration of Russia still needs to happen.  The Fatima Message was not just for the salvation of Catholic souls but the whole world.  How is it going to save Russia without Russia's conversion to the Catholic Faith?  The French King was asked by Heaven to consecrate France to Our Lord's Sacred Heart.  He hadn't done it in 100 years then came the French Revolution.  If we go by the same 100 year time line then the Pope along with all the bishops have until 2017, or 2029 if you go by when Sister Lucy was told to ask the Pope for the consecration.

I have a notion to believe what Someone1776  has to say about Revolution and Counter-Revolution without even reading it.  Elitism has a tendency to encourage revolution.  It did in the French Revolution and also the Communist Russian Revolution.  We need to be careful about this in North America too, both in the States and Canada.  That is what communists wait for; unrest to spark a revolution.  Nothing will encourage unrest more than elitism.         


Wait, when did that happen?


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - mikemac - 01-26-2012

(01-26-2012, 10:06 PM)verenaerin Wrote:
(01-26-2012, 10:04 PM)mikemac Wrote:
(01-25-2012, 02:02 PM)FishFriday Wrote:
(01-24-2012, 02:21 AM)mikemac Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Their America Needs Fatima sister organization won't publicly say what their view of the consecration of Russia is. 

That's right.  I have been receiving e-mail from America Needs Fatima for over a year after signing an ANF petition that was posted in this forum and they have yet to mention anything about the consecration of Russia.  Not one thing.

This is on the America Needs Fatima website and addresses the consecration question saying that any consecration after 1939 was too late. That would explain why they don't make a big deal about it.

http://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Articles/fatima-more-urgent-redo.html

Thanks FishFriday.  I understand now.  Quote from that ANF page.
Quote:In a letter to Father Gonçalves, dated May 18, 1936, the seer narrates a locution she had from Our Lord regarding the same:

The Holy Father. Pray very much for the Holy Father. He will do [the consecration to Russia], but it will be too late. Nevertheless, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will save Russia. It has been entrusted to Her.

Every other web site about Fatima that quotes those lines read like this; "Pray very much for the Holy Father! He will do it, but it will be late."

Another quote from that ANF page.
Quote:Like the king of France they will repent and do so, but it will be too late.

Every other web site about Fatima that quotes that line reads like this; "Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late."

Do you see the difference?  It's small, but it's huge.  This is what Our Lord Himself said to Sister Lucy.  By adding the one word "too" to Our Lord's quotes those two times America Needs Fatima and Robert Ritchie are distorting the entire Message of Fatima and Our Lord's words.  Shame on them.  God help them.

Why do you think Sister Lucy said to do the consecration by 1960 at the latest?  Why do you think Pope Benedict said less than two years ago that he may have to do the consecration?

The consecration of Russia still needs to happen.  The Fatima Message was not just for the salvation of Catholic souls but the whole world.  How is it going to save Russia without Russia's conversion to the Catholic Faith?  The French King was asked by Heaven to consecrate France to Our Lord's Sacred Heart.  He hadn't done it in 100 years then came the French Revolution.  If we go by the same 100 year time line then the Pope along with all the bishops have until 2017, or 2029 if you go by when Sister Lucy was told to ask the Pope for the consecration.

I have a notion to believe what Someone1776  has to say about Revolution and Counter-Revolution without even reading it.  Elitism has a tendency to encourage revolution.  It did in the French Revolution and also the Communist Russian Revolution.  We need to be careful about this in North America too, both in the States and Canada.  That is what communists wait for; unrest to spark a revolution.  Nothing will encourage unrest more than elitism.         


Wait, when did that happen?

I believe it was on his way to or possibly on his way back from Fatima in May 2009 verenaerin.  I'd have to look it up to make sure.  I have to go out right now but if someone else hasn't already posted about it I will tomorrow.  I'm sure Tim and others know about this too.


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - Parmandur - 01-26-2012

(01-23-2012, 02:34 AM)alphonsusjr Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 02:07 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Just keep reading Revolution and Counter-Revolution and you'll see. Really pay attention to what he thinks a Counter-Revolution looks like. 

Will do. In the meantime, let me run this thesis by you:

"There are people with a God-given title to rule."

What do you think?

Well, sure, that's whoever happens to rule, isn't it?  God providentially controls all of history, so whoever in fact rules, has God-given authority.


Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - PerfectoOdio1099 - 01-26-2012

I would like to preface this post by saying I am not, nor have I been, a member of the TFP.
   I am however, a Catholic. As such, I am most distressed to see such vile things as calumnies and lies being thrown around on this here-to-for, highly respectable forum.
I know that you will all dismiss me immediately since this is my first post. I have, up to this point, participated in this forum on a read-only basis. That will do little to abate the ire of those for whom credibility and right i determined by the number of posts one has;but I stand by it.

     I would like to start by recommending all of you to read this: http://www.tfp.org/ref/Unity.pdf , In which the TFP answers many of the baseless and frivolous accusations against it..
Secondly, I have, in my own personal experience, (Which includes, but is not limited to: Conferences, Pro-life demonstrations, Traditional Marriage campaigns, lectures, summer programs, etc) never found the TFP to be anything other that what they claim to be: an organization of Lay Catholic men dedicated to combating the growing tides of secularism, modernism, and progressivism. 
      I have seen them demonstrate an understandable admiration and deference for their founder, Prof. Plinio, but never anything that transgresses the bounds of Catholic practice.
      Also to be seriously considered are the endorsements of such notable Clerics as Cardinals Stickler and Medina (Tireless advocates of Tradition), as well Bishops Bruskaewitz and Vasa, and Fathers Levis and Trigilio, all churchmen of good repute, orthodox creed and keen intellect. Their recommendations are to be taken most seriously.

As for Prof. Plinio's milestone work, Revolution and Counter-Revolution: I have myself read it, and found it, far from what has been said on this forum, to be an inspiration to me, as a Catholic. It contains within it both a coherent exposition of Catholic Society, and the divine laws pertaining there-to, but also a conclusive plan of action against the aforementioned three-fold societal enemy.
 
   God Bless, and May Our Lady guide you,
       - PerfectoOdio1099



Re: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs? - Someone1776 - 01-26-2012

Wow, this thread is attracting so many new members.