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The real St. Francis of Assisi - Printable Version

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Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - JayneK - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 06:37 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 06:12 PM)JayneK Wrote: The false St. Francis is the liberal ideal.  Almost by definition, that is something feminized.  Of course, women can also have orthodox faith, but that faith is not a feminine faith.  Voris is making a reasonable distinction here.

Francis' idea of “living the gospel” and forming the friars minor was very radical in its time. What they might call liberal in the sense that it was innovative and groundbreaking, a departure from the tradition of monasticism. Yes, he was a loyal son of the church and obedient to the Pope. Is that a feminine or liberal attitude? Is it a masculine or conservative attitude? We shouldn't use those labels in Catholicism. You are either orthodox or you aren't. I don't know what you mean by orthodox faith being “not a feminine faith.” The truth is the truth. Perhaps certain methods of teaching the faith can be aggressive or passive, exclusive or inclusive, or somewhere in between. I agree with Voris that the hippie-izing of Francis is false and unfortune, but we don't need to deny that he sang songs to Brother Wolf and Sister Stars. Again, we need a  complete picture of Francis. His approach and spirituality was his own. 

Why shouldn't we use the labels masculine and feminine? Masculine refers to using reason, basing decisions on principles, valuing hierarchical order.  Feminine refers to using emotion, basing decisions on personal relationships, valuing informal networks.  Like knittycat was saying, this does not equate to females and males.  Orthodox Catholicism has qualities that are masculine.  Modernism rejects these and tries to make a feminized Church. 

Nobody has suggested that we ought to deny that St. Francis sang songs and felt connected to nature.  Adding a bunch of lies to these few truths in order to make a Saint for liberals is wrong.  Really wrong.


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - Someone1776 - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 06:55 PM)JayneK Wrote: Why shouldn't we use the labels masculine and feminine? Masculine refers to using reason, basing decisions on principles, valuing hierarchical order.  Feminine refers to using emotion, basing decisions on personal relationships, valuing informal networks.  Like knittycat was saying, this does not equate to females and males.  Orthodox Catholicism has qualities that are masculine.  Modernism rejects these and tries to make a feminized Church. 

Nobody has suggested that we ought to deny that St. Francis sang songs and felt connected to nature.  Adding a bunch of lies to these few truths in order to make a Saint for liberals is wrong.  Really wrong.

Curious how the Church is referred to as a "she," the bride of Christ, and our mother. 


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - Adam Wayne - 01-30-2012

Now you're going to henpeck on me?


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - JayneK - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 07:05 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 06:55 PM)JayneK Wrote: Why shouldn't we use the labels masculine and feminine? Masculine refers to using reason, basing decisions on principles, valuing hierarchical order.  Feminine refers to using emotion, basing decisions on personal relationships, valuing informal networks.  Like knittycat was saying, this does not equate to females and males.  Orthodox Catholicism has qualities that are masculine.  Modernism rejects these and tries to make a feminized Church. 

Nobody has suggested that we ought to deny that St. Francis sang songs and felt connected to nature.  Adding a bunch of lies to these few truths in order to make a Saint for liberals is wrong.  Really wrong.

Curious how the Church is referred to as a "she," the bride of Christ, and our mother. 

The Church in relation to Christ is feminine.  She is to be obedient and receptive.  But the Catholic faith in relation to the world should be masculine - strong, courageous, fair, disciplined.


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - JayneK - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 07:12 PM)Adam Wayne Wrote: Now you're going to henpeck on me?

Now you are just baiting her.  There are some interesting ideas in this thread.  Let's talk about them.


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - SCG - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 06:55 PM)JayneK Wrote: Why shouldn't we use the labels masculine and feminine? Masculine refers to using reason, basing decisions on principles, valuing hierarchical order.  Feminine refers to using emotion, basing decisions on personal relationships, valuing informal networks.  Like knittycat was saying, this does not equate to females and males.  Orthodox Catholicism has qualities that are masculine.  Modernism rejects these and tries to make a feminized Church. 

Orthodox Catholicism needs both reason and intuition, hierarchy and community. It needs hearts open and submissive to the Holy Spirit. The Church herself is described as a BRIDE (thank you, Someone!).

Voris, in his series, kept symbolizing Christ and the apostles as warriors and kings. Well, KING is one symbol of Christ, but Jesus also used the image of a shepherd. The Pope, bishops and priests are shepherds -- pastors. This sometimes includes chasing off wolves, and sometimes breaking the legs of wayward sheep. But for the most part it entails feeding and herding. It means using a staff, not a sledgehammer, to tend the flock.

We might agree that inclusiveness and gentle persuasion is a "feminine" quality" -- Voris did and made it BAD. He always uses the word  feminine or "feminized" negatively. But masculine, or "masculinized" is always a positive thing.


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - knittycat - 01-30-2012

Consider the magnet. It has positive and negative poles. The fundamental nature of a magnet requires it to have both positive and negative poles. Is the positive pole superior to the negative pole? No. We just use positive and negative to articulate an idea. It's an accepted and common term, and if we used a different term, people will become confused, even though 'Positive' and 'Negative' have other meanings and can be weighted down with baggage.
Now, a magnet has these poles. Here is the magic. If you alternate these poles within a coil of wire, you get electricity!
So, a magnets nature requires two poles, one pole is not superior to the other, but when they are used constructively, you get something useful.

Do you catch my drift?


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - The Dying Flutchman - 01-30-2012

Feminism was one of the main contributors in the destruction of  the modern Catholic Church. It used to be the Priesthood was looked up to as a manly vocation. Now its just gay. Because of the way the fruity Novus Ordo Priests act and bend over backwards to be effeminate.


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - SCG - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 07:12 PM)Adam Wayne Wrote: Now you're going to henpeck on me?

Use a less offensive, intentionally antagonizing word. Or give us your views on the video.


Re: The real St. Francis of Assisi - knittycat - 01-30-2012

(01-30-2012, 07:36 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: We might agree that inclusiveness and gentle persuasion is a "feminine" quality" -- Voris did and made it BAD. He always uses the word  feminine or "feminized" negatively. But masculine, or "masculinized" is always a positive thing.

I don't see this. What I see is him saying that the extreme feminization of the church is wrong, not that the feminine is wrong.  Masculine and feminine have their spheres, and when you try to replace one with the other, bad things happen.