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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-21-2012

Since St. Augustine got sucked into this, allow me to present the whole quote:
Quote: 76. Pusillus of Lamasba(9) said: "I believe that baptism is not unto salvation except within the Catholic Church. Whatsoever is without the Catholic Church is mere pretense."(10)

77. This indeed is true, that "baptism is not unto salvation except within the Catholic Church." For in itself it can indeed exist outside the Catholic Church as well; but there it is not unto salvation, because there it does not work salvation; just as that sweet savor of Christ is certainly not unto salvation in them that perish,(11) though from a fault not in itself, but in them. But "whatsoever is without the Catholic Church is mere pretense," yet only in so far as it is not Catholic. But there may be something Catholic outside the Catholic Church, just as the name of Christ could exist outside the congregation of Christ, in which name he who did not follow with the disciples was casting out devils.(12) For there may be pretense also within the Catholic Church, as is unquestionable in the case of those "who renounce the world in words and not in deeds," and yet the pretense is not Catholic. As, therefore, there is in the Catholic Church something which is not Catholic, so there may be something which is Catholic outside the Catholic Church.
St. Augustine is merely arguing that baptism outside the Church is valid.  However people left in that state (after the age of reason) perish.  There is nothing about celebrating the fact that Prots are baptizing or whatever.  Especially when in fact most of the people they "convert" are former Catholics.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 02:51 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 02:09 PM)TrentCath Wrote:   If we actually look at the popes words, which is why I quoted your original post, we can see that your justifications have little to do with what he actually said. His words are pregnant with indifferentism, there are good things that happen in the church, there are good things that happen outside the Church, he of course makes no distinction, we should praise and esteem them and not ignore the good things done by them due to the profound communion with them etc... There is even an implication that actually this division is the will of God and that somehow the many heretics being outside the Church reflects God using many different tools.

If you can't see how that's problematic, you are simply being wilfully blind. It approaches some of what John Paul II says when it comes to problematic statements. 

There is nothing problematic in the Holy Father's words. Everything he said is so. I don't know why the idea exists that if there are 3 things that are true -- X, Y, and Z -- the Pope is "religiously indifferent" unless he mentions all three. If X is "Actual grace exists outside of the Church" and Y is "Natural virtues are evident in many who are not formal members of the Church" and Z is "Protestants are wrong in not submitting to papal authority, some folks would call the Pope all sorts of names if he just mentions the first two on any given day.  I think some people expect the Pope to wake up every morning, go to his balcony, and yell out "Protestants are material heretics! Just so's y'all know!"  If someone wants to say that he doesn't preach enough about the importance of conversion to the Church, I'd agree. But that hardly makes wrong or a proof of indifference out of anything he said above.

Vox with all due respect I strongly disagree and you are completely missing my point. The message is clearly indifferentist, that can be seen from what is said about this supposed communion and the issue with Gods diversity being shown through this division as if actually heresy were a good thing or as if there being heretics were a good thing. Actually heretics do not manifest diversity they manifest error and actually there is no deep communion with them. It is also scandalous to magnify those communities in error and deprecate the Church in the next sentence. I do not understand how anyone can read the popes words and go "actually its fine, he says nothing wrong" that, to me, seems to just be wilful blindness. How is saying we have a deep communion with those outside the Church Catholic? Which pope or saint praised these lost souls, not for some individual good work but corporately as whole groups? How is saying that we all work together doing Gods work in different ways Catholic or not indifferentist? It is the very definition of indifferentism. Catholics, Protestants, it doesn't matter, we all work together doing Gods work.

There is also a further problem with your analysis, to whom is the pope speaking? It can hardly be said the Church has failed to praise almost every heretic, apostate and schismatic under the Sun, so how is it failing to recognise their so called gifts? Has not the church spent 50 years praising these groups and saying nice things about them? This is not what the Church needs, it needs to be reminded of its own God given glory and uniqueness.

If you disagree then fine, but you will not convince me otherwise or rather I have seen no compelling arguments showing that what the pope said is perfectly orthodox.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 04:19 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Pope who meets with Lutheran leaders to talk about how great Luther's faith was and invites worship of false gods and atheism into God's house and positively provides concessions to allow for it writes about the virtues  found outside of Catholicism?  The words themselves probably <i>are</i> alright because they are true in a certain sense, but at the end of the day when you string it together with everything else, it's just more of the same modernism. 

SouthpawLink Wrote:Forgive me for belaboring the point, but when was the last time -- if ever -- the Holy Father preached Z?  If all he ever does is preach about X and Y (e.g., Luther was "a great witness of the faith" and "a true believer"), then what impression are most people, including non-theologically-inclined Catholics, going to come away with?  When will it be convenient enough for him to preach Z?


Did you guys see the last line of my post?:  "If someone wants to say that he doesn't preach enough about the importance of conversion to the Church, I'd agree. But that hardly makes wrong or a proof of indifference out of anything he said above."

It's one thing to think the Holy Father doesn't preach enough about God's desire for Christian unity (under the supreme pontiff, of course) and for all men to belong to the Church -- and it's another to claim to find heresy or indifferentism or whatever in perfectly kosher text. It's not right or cool (in fact, it's sinful) and makes trads look like people who like to whine for the sake of whining, who go looking for trouble, hoping to find it -- and claiming to find it where it isn't. There's a reason why that stereotype of trads exists. Trads, like everyone, should fight fair and be honest, and they certainly shouldn't be coming off as just waiiiiiiiting for the Holy Father to "scandalize" us (even though no trad is really "scandalized" by the things pointed out. They might not like it or approve of it, but that isn't what "scandal" means).

I dunno... That sort of thing bugs me. In the first place, it isn't logical. In the second, it doesn't win hearts and minds to come off as bitter to the point of being willing to exaggerate faults and even make things up to sigh over. And because of the logic problem, it doesn't serve to educate anyone about anything. Anyone can read the Holy Father's words above, reflect on Catholic teaching, and know there's nothing wrong with what was said, so indicating otherwise makes trads look really bad. Maybe even stupid. It's unfortunate that this sort of thinking happens a lot.

Vox this is your forum and you know we respect you but what you're saying is plain disrespectful. You are essentially saying everyone who disagrees with you makes us all look stupid and wrong, is sinning and makes the trad movement look bad, I've said my fair share of things I shouldn't but you're the moderator!

I understand you wanting people to tone down what they say on this forum and you've made your feelings on that clear, but if we can't even respectfully express our feelings on something without the mod telling us we are sinning by doing something then thats a whole different ballgame.

I have some other things to say but I don't want to be rude so I'll leave it.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-21-2012

Quote: I think in this particular case, he was talking about some of the good fruits Protestants bear and how some Catholics would begrudge them that or deny that they can possibly have any natural virtue or any actual grace because "they" are not "us" who have God wrapped up in a box because we are members of the Body of His Church

The problem with this sermon are many.  If we go way out on a limb, and say he is saying Catholics should be happy that Baptist Hospitals are providing discounted medical care to poor people, then yeah, that's fine.  The problem is you can't tell me what he means.  And sure enough many heretics will use this sermon to promote ecuManiacism.  His choice of words are also very poor:
Quote: and that it is possible to work together in the cause of the Kingdom of God in different ways,
  Note, not working to better the Earthly City, but the City of God.  Big problem there.
Quote:  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups.
  Is he REALLY talking about the baptist church giving out discount medical care?  This ambiguous sentence is dangerous.
Quote: We must all, however, be always able to appreciate and esteem each other, praising the Lord for the infinite “imagination” with which he works in the Church and in the world.
  Church here is undefined.  Not normally a problem, but after Vat II, a big problem.  In this day and age it is almost a necessity to say CATHOLIC Church, especially after just referencing "eccleisal groups".  What does "eccleisal" mean, by the way?
Quote: let us pray that we might know how to rejoice in every good deed and initiative, without envy and jealousy,
  What in the heck is he talking about?  Are Catholics envious and jealous of the Baptist Hospital for providing care for poor people?  So exactly what is he talking about?  If I'm a NeoCatholic, then here is how I would take it.  We shouldn't be envious and jealous of the success evangelicals are having converting Catholics.  Especially when there have been some articles out there bringing up the fact.  Bascially it is the message of someone who does not know what to do and has given up.  It's a massive rationalization.  Well the grace has moved to Africa, so the Spirit is moving these evangelicals to bring these Catholics closer to Christ.

Does the Pope explicitly say this?  Nope, agreed.  But answer me this.  How will the bulk of the neoCatholics take this sermon?  Will they take it that we should be happy some poor people are getting medical care at the Baptist Hospital (which before they were envious and jealous), or that Catholics should not be envious and jealous over the 10's of millions the evangelicals and mormons are "converting"?  So how will a NeoCat read this?




Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 04:53 PM)TrentCath Wrote: Vox this is your forum and you know we respect you but what you're saying is plain disrespectful. You are essentially saying everyone who disagrees with you makes us all look stupid and wrong, is sinning and makes the trad movement look bad, I've said my fair share of things I shouldn't but you're the moderator!

I understand you wanting people to tone down what they say on this forum and you've made your feelings on that clear, but if we can't even respectfully express our feelings on something without the mod telling us we are sinning by doing something then thats a whole different ballgame.

I have some other things to say but I don't want to be rude so I'll leave it.

It has nothing to do with "agreeing with me" per se; it's exactly what I said. It's a fact that claiming to find that which doesn't exist is bad, that trads should fight fair and be honest and shouldn't wantonly accuse Popes of heresy (especially when twisting perfectly fine text to "prove" the assertions), that there shouldn't be bitterness, etc. Whether you fit that description is another matter, and I didn't say anything about you one way or another. I didn't tell you that you were sinning; I said that people who do the above are sinning. And they are. The debate here is about whether the text says what you are claiming it says, whether it "proves" religious indifferentism, etc. If it isn't saying what you say it is saying, if you are "looking for trouble," if you are accusing the Holy Father of expressing indifferentism in a bit of text that doesn't show that, etc., then it's a bad thing. It's also a question of fact about which we have differing opinions. I'm sure other people will offer theirs. That's the point of the thread.





Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 05:38 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 04:53 PM)TrentCath Wrote: Vox this is your forum and you know we respect you but what you're saying is plain disrespectful. You are essentially saying everyone who disagrees with you makes us all look stupid and wrong, is sinning and makes the trad movement look bad, I've said my fair share of things I shouldn't but you're the moderator!

I understand you wanting people to tone down what they say on this forum and you've made your feelings on that clear, but if we can't even respectfully express our feelings on something without the mod telling us we are sinning by doing something then thats a whole different ballgame.

I have some other things to say but I don't want to be rude so I'll leave it.

It has nothing to do with "agreeing with me" per se; it's exactly what I said. It's a fact that claiming to find that which doesn't exist is bad, that trads should fight fair and be honest and shouldn't wantonly accuse Popes of heresy (especially when twisting perfectly fine text to "prove" the assertions), that there shouldn't be bitterness, etc. Whether you fit that description is another matter, and I didn't say anything about you one way or another. I didn't tell you that you were sinning; I said that people who do the above are sinning. And they are. The debate here is about whether the text says what you are claiming it says, whether it "proves" religious indifferentism, etc. If it isn't saying what you say it is saying, if you are "looking for trouble," if you are accusing the Holy Father of expressing indifferentism in a bit of text that doesn't show that, etc., then it's a bad thing. It's also a question of fact about which we have differing opinions. I'm sure other people will offer theirs. That's the point of the thread.

OK then I must have missed the If`s, I agree that sometimes people go too far and its not helpful but I don't think that's the case here.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 05:22 PM)James02 Wrote: The problem with this sermon are many.  If we go way out on a limb, and say he is saying Catholics should be happy that Baptist Hospitals are providing discounted medical care to poor people, then yeah, that's fine.  The problem is you can't tell me what he means.  And sure enough many heretics will use this sermon to promote ecuManiacism.  His choice of words are also very poor: 

I can tell you that the Catholic thing to do is to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he means something Catholic -- which would entail believing that he means what it looks like he means: simply that the natural virtues and grace can be found outside the visible Church. Further, if his choice of words are poor, that is one thing, and no big deal to express that opinion; it's another thing to go on about his alleged "indifference" and such.

Quote:  Note, not working to better the Earthly City, but the City of God.  Big problem there....Is he REALLY talking about the baptist church giving out discount medical care?  This ambiguous sentence is dangerous.


He is referring to the baptized, and Baptism belongs to the Church. From the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The old distinction between the body and soul of the Church is useful to prevent confusion of ideas. Christian baptism constitutes membership in the Visible Church; the state of grace, membership in the Invisible. It is obvious that one membership does not necessarily connote the other."

Quote:  What in the heck is he talking about?  Are Catholics envious and jealous of the Baptist Hospital for providing care for poor people?  So exactly what is he talking about? 

I answered with my opinion on this in the post you were responding to. I believe he is talking about spiritual jealousy.

Quote: If I'm a NeoCatholic, then here is how I would take it.  We shouldn't be envious and jealous of the success evangelicals are having converting Catholics.  Especially when there have been some articles out there bringing up the fact.  Bascially it is the message of someone who does not know what to do and has given up.  It's a massive rationalization.  Well the grace has moved to Africa, so the Spirit is moving these evangelicals to bring these Catholics closer to Christ.

Does the Pope explicitly say this?  Nope, agreed.  But answer me this.  How will the bulk of the neoCatholics take this sermon?  Will they take it that we should be happy some poor people are getting medical care at the Baptist Hospital (which before they were envious and jealous), or that Catholics should not be envious and jealous over the 10's of millions the evangelicals and mormons are "converting"?  So how will a NeoCat read this?

I have no idea how a "NeoCat" would read it.  But I read it as him saying that virtue and grace exist outside the Church's visible boundaries and we should rejoice in that fact; that because Baptism belongs to the Church (and there is only One Church and it is Catholic and I'm sure that is what he, being the Pope, means by the word), there is at least some level of "communion" with Protestants; and that spiritual jealousy is to be avoided. I don't see him as referring in any way to Mormons' proselytizing  success or evangelizing in Africa or whatever. As to whether or not "neoCats" would take this text to mean they should be happy that some poor people are getting medical care at the Baptist hospital, I don't think that's at all what he's talking about, but one should be happy about that anyway. It's a good thing.




Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-21-2012

But the issue is exactly that, we don't have a deep and meaningful communion with heretics, individually they may or may not be part of the Church, but corporately there is no deep or meaningful communion with them nor could there be.  There certainly can be no comparison between the way God works in the True Church and the way he brings good out of evil in heretics, schismatics etc... and they certainly do not reflect Gods diversity.

The pope isn't just saying God works good in or through heretics he's comparing this with the way God works through the True Church and saying this reflects his diversity, is good and we should work with them due to our deep communion and realise the Church's failings.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-21-2012

Quote: But I read it as him saying.....that because Baptism belongs to the Church (and there is only One Church and it is Catholic and I'm sure that is what he, being the Pope, means by the word), there is at least some level of "communion" with Protestants; and that spiritual jealousy is to be avoided.

It would be nice if he had talked about Baptism.  But he didn't.

"Profound communion" with "eccleisal groups"?  Note "groups", not individuals.  Again, this is pretty bad.

And how can we "work together" with regards to the Kingdom of God with these "eccleisal groups"?  Note, he has made the distinction.  Not building a better earth, help for the poor, but the Kingdom of God.  That is not possible with groups whose sole purpose (though not consciously due to their ignorance) is the destruction of the Kingdom of God.

Is what he writes heresy?  No.  It is ambiguous.  Will it be easily twisted to further ecuManiacism.  Yes, no doubt.  And that is the problem.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Mithrandylan - 10-21-2012

Ambiguity in doctrine is a red flag for modernism.

Continually appealing to "not knowing the pope's heart" or "not being able to read his mind" or "it's not wrong <i>per se</i>" gets really tiring and eventually fruitless and futile (even embarrassing) when he (and I'm talking about any of the post conciliar pontiffs here) can't be bothered to teach clearly Catholic doctrine.