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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Phillipus Iacobus - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 07:38 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Ambiguity in doctrine is a red flag for modernism.

Continually appealing to "not knowing the pope's heart" or "not being able to read his mind" or "it's not wrong <i>per se</i>" gets really tiring and eventually fruitless and futile (even embarrassing) when he (and I'm talking about any of the post conciliar pontiffs here) can't be bothered to teach clearly Catholic doctrine. 

It renders the Magisterium pointless; as if Christ gave us a teacher (magistra) who couldn't actually teach.

Doctrinal ambiguity isn't Catholic, and it isn't of Christ.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 06:27 PM)TrentCath Wrote: But the issue is exactly that, we don't have a deep and meaningful communion with heretics, individually they may or may not be part of the Church, but corporately there is no deep or meaningful communion with them nor could there be.  There certainly can be no comparison between the way God works in the True Church and the way he brings good out of evil in heretics, schismatics etc... and they certainly do not reflect Gods diversity.

The pope isn't just saying God works good in or through heretics he's comparing this with the way God works through the True Church and saying this reflects his diversity, is good and we should work with them due to our deep communion and realise the Church's failings.

Baptism isn't deep and meaningful? I disagree. I also didn't see any "comparison" between the way God works in the Church as opposed to the world. He simply did not "compare" them. He mentioned the Truth that there is good outside of the Church. Nothing wrong with that, and much right with that.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 07:26 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: But I read it as him saying.....that because Baptism belongs to the Church (and there is only One Church and it is Catholic and I'm sure that is what he, being the Pope, means by the word), there is at least some level of "communion" with Protestants; and that spiritual jealousy is to be avoided.

It would be nice if he had talked about Baptism.  But he didn't.

"Profound communion" with "eccleisal groups"?  Note "groups", not individuals.  Again, this is pretty bad.

And how can we "work together" with regards to the Kingdom of God with these "eccleisal groups"?  Note, he has made the distinction.  Not building a better earth, help for the poor, but the Kingdom of God.  That is not possible with groups whose sole purpose (though not consciously due to their ignorance) is the destruction of the Kingdom of God.

Is what he writes heresy?  No.  It is ambiguous.  Will it be easily twisted to further ecuManiacism.  Yes, no doubt.  And that is the problem.

He didn't have to mention Baptism by name to refer to it. He was obviously referring to something, and that can only be Baptism and certain doctrines that all Christians believe. There would be "communion" with groups to the degree that they offer valid Baptisms and share certain doctrines. Catholics and Protestants have worked together for all sorts of purposes -- such as opposing abortion. And the "sole purpose" of Protestant groups isn't, even pre-consciously, "the destruction of the Kingdom of God." I don't see anything ambiguous in the text. And being a Catholic born in the 20th c., I'm very familiar with ambiguity. There's just no reason to to see it were it isn't and to promiscuously accuse Popes of it when they're speaking in plain language.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - CollegeCatholic - 10-21-2012

If being a Catholic means being a naive little child who has no use for his brain and reasoning skills and is to ignore clearly scandalous writings and speeches by the Vicar of Christ in a time of Crisis and just assume "he means authentic Catholic teaching" while actually only muddling up the waters, well.... I don't know what to think then.

That doesn't jive with me having reason. 

Why bother thinking if all I have to do is assume his intentions are good?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the skulls of bishops.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Mithrandylan - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 08:57 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: If being a Catholic means being a naive little child who has no use for his brain and reasoning skills and is to ignore clearly scandalous writings and speeches by the Vicar of Christ in a time of Crisis and just assume "he means authentic Catholic teaching" while actually only muddling up the waters, well.... I don't know what to think then.

That doesn't jive with me having reason. 

Why bother thinking if all I have to do is assume his intentions are good?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the skulls of bishops.

And it really doesn't require a whole lot of thinking, either.  Consider the Pilgrimage of Grace.  English Peasants who didn't have the internet, didn't have hand missals, didn't have any of the resources we do went to war against their bishop and gave their lives when he changed the mass and protestantized the culture-- and there wasn't anything explicitly heretical in the mass of Cranmer, either.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-21-2012

The pre-conciliar Pontiffs on the true notion of "communion":

"Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that 'all that is not of faith is sin,' we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion" (Pope St. Leo the Great, Serm. CXXIX).

"Whoever thus gives proper attention and reflection to the situation which surrounds the various religious societies, divided amongst themselves and separated from the Catholic Church - which, without interruption, from the time of Christ the Lord and of His Apostles, by means of her legitimate sacred Shepherds, has always exercised, and exercises still, the divine power conferred upon Her by the Lord - it will be easy to convince [them] that in none of these societies, and not even in all of them taken together, can in some way be seen the one and Catholic Church which Christ the Lord built, constituted, and willed to exist.  Neither will it ever be able to be said that they are members and part of that Church as long as they remain visibly separated from Catholic unity" (Pope Pius IX, Iam Vos Omnes).

"The Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd.  This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation" (First Vatican Council, Sess. IV, ch. 3: Denz. 1827).

"But as even the rudiments of Catholic faith declare, no one can be considered a bishop who is not linked in communion of faith and love with Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ" (Etsi Multa, n. 24).

"We must consequently investigate not how the Church may possibly be one, but how He, who founded it, willed that it should be one.  But when we consider what was actually done we find that Jesus Christ did not, in point of fact, institute a Church to embrace several communities similar in nature, but in themselves distinct, and lacking those bonds which render the Church unique and indivisible . . . The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. ... When the Divine founder decreed that the Church should be one in faith, in government, and in communion, He chose Peter and his successors as the principle and centre, as it were, of this unity" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, nn. 4, 9, 15).

"Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, as something merely 'pneumatological' as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are united by an invisible bond. ... It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit" (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, nn. 14, 22).

The Catholic Church has no unity of faith with heretical sects, nor does she have unity of government with schismatic societies, so what basis is there for partial communion between these groups?


Dominus Iesus teaches that the Eastern schismatic sect is "united" to the Catholic Church imperfectly ("not existing in perfect communion"), and it's heavily implied that their status as "true particular Churches" means that they are part of the "single Church of Christ;" indeed, it "is present and operative in" them (n. 17).  Similarly, Some Aspects of the Church Understood as Communion teaches that the Eastern schismatic churches have a "wounded existence as true particular Churches" of "the universal Church" (n. 17).


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - CollegeCatholic - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 09:11 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 08:57 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: If being a Catholic means being a naive little child who has no use for his brain and reasoning skills and is to ignore clearly scandalous writings and speeches by the Vicar of Christ in a time of Crisis and just assume "he means authentic Catholic teaching" while actually only muddling up the waters, well.... I don't know what to think then.

That doesn't jive with me having reason. 

Why bother thinking if all I have to do is assume his intentions are good?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the skulls of bishops.

And it really doesn't require a whole lot of thinking, either.  Consider the Pilgrimage of Grace.  English Peasants who didn't have the internet, didn't have hand missals, didn't have any of the resources we do went to war against their bishop and gave their lives when he changed the mass and protestantized the culture-- and there wasn't anything explicitly heretical in the mass of Cranmer, either.

Clearly those Catholics were wrong and mean and judgmental! 


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Mithrandylan - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 09:51 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 09:11 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 08:57 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: If being a Catholic means being a naive little child who has no use for his brain and reasoning skills and is to ignore clearly scandalous writings and speeches by the Vicar of Christ in a time of Crisis and just assume "he means authentic Catholic teaching" while actually only muddling up the waters, well.... I don't know what to think then.

That doesn't jive with me having reason. 

Why bother thinking if all I have to do is assume his intentions are good?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the skulls of bishops.

And it really doesn't require a whole lot of thinking, either.  Consider the Pilgrimage of Grace.  English Peasants who didn't have the internet, didn't have hand missals, didn't have any of the resources we do went to war against their bishop and gave their lives when he changed the mass and protestantized the culture-- and there wasn't anything explicitly heretical in the mass of Cranmer, either.

Clearly those Catholics were wrong and mean and judgmental! 

Clearly they had a good <i>Sensus Catholicus</i> which is, per the definition of trad on FE, a defining characteristic of a traditional Catholic.  I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and it is something that has been lost along with everything else.  Our Catholic intuition is dumbed down and replaced by unconditional obedience to Rome.  That our Catholic sense is "what the pope does/says."

What we're doing now isn't any different than what those English peasants did during the reformation.  The took it upon themselves to call a spade a spade and to say "this isn't Catholic, and I won't have any part of it."  Actually, it is different because we're not marching on the chanceries with pitchforks.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - CollegeCatholic - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 09:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Clearly they had a good <i>Sensus Catholicus</i> which is, per the definition of trad on FE, a defining characteristic of a traditional Catholic.  I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and it is something that has been lost along with everything else.  Our Catholic intuition is dumbed down and replaced by unconditional obedience to Rome.  That our Catholic sense is "what the pope does/says."

What we're doing now isn't any different than what those English peasants did during the reformation.  The took it upon themselves to call a spade a spade and to say "this isn't Catholic, and I won't have any part of it."   Actually, it is different because we're not marching on the chanceries with pitchforks.

I agree with this so much.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - JuniorCouncilor - 10-21-2012

I'm not sure I even have a pitchfork.

I wouldn't mind joining a right-minded crowd to visit Cdl. Wuerl's chancery with one if they were provided, though...