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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-22-2012

Vox, you see nothing wrong with this?  Not even a little problem?  Just a great speech?

Pope Leo Wrote:The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium

Leo the Great Wrote:"Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that 'all that is not of faith is sin,' we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion"

Pope Benedict Wrote:  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups.

Hat tip to southpaw.




Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 11:11 AM)Walty Wrote: ... it is NEVER easy to find fault in the Holy Father or any of his cardinals.  It always hurts.  It always makes us lament for the Church.

I believe this is true of you, and of many.

But there are definitely those who show a sort of glee in finding fault with the Holy Father. Why would they do so? Perhaps they don't really believe he is the Pope? But even many who don't believe so don't show joy in finding fault.

Maybe it's because it further justifies them in their own positions?

I don't know. But if this were always the attitude, if it really pained us in every instance to see fault but sometimes we had to consider the fault for the sake of truth, that would be a great improvement in the tone (in traddom in general, not just in this forum).

Anyway, that is an aside.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 11:25 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:06 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: There are two issues here.

1. What the Pope said is okay or not okay.

2. Whether the people who say that the Pope's words were okay are (a) actually saying the words were okay or (b) saying it doesn't matter, put your head in the sand, the Pope is always right, just trust blindly.

CC was accusing people of saying (b), but no one is actually saying (b). Vox is pointing out that they are saying (a) which is a totally different position to take (and which preserves the view the we should be reasonable, we can use our minds, we can open our eyes - but comes to a different conclusion than those who say the Pope's words are problematic).

So without even forcing a side, I think Vox (who can clarify if I'm mistaken) is really saying that CC is off with his (quite unfair) characterization. "I see the problems with the Pope's words, so if you think they are okay, you must think we should be naive and act like we don't have reason."

The problem is how much of peoples conclusions come from a presumption that actually the pope might be right because he's pope? Would those people come to the same conclusion if any old person said it or if it was just some private thoughts written in the popes diary? Judging from a lot of arguments that I've had with people on the magisterium I think the answer to that is obviously, No.

The other issue is that I haven't seen any cogent argument advanced that the popes words are fine, I've read several people saying this but no ones actually offered to prove or show it. Considering that several people have done the opposite i.e advanced cogent arguments that the popes words are problematic, its reasonable to not be very convinced by those who think the popes words are perfectly fine.

CC may or may not be right in this particular occasion  but there is a pattern of behaviour of some that resembles what he say, even if it might not have happened on this thread and there have been several threads where peoples arguments boil down to "the pope can't be wrong so you are wrong"

I'm not sure there is any such pattern. Are you sure you are not exaggerating? When we disagree it's easy to see more flaws in the other party than there really are, or to exaggerate them.

Who said the pope is right because he's pope?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:01 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:11 AM)Walty Wrote: ... it is NEVER easy to find fault in the Holy Father or any of his cardinals.  It always hurts.  It always makes us lament for the Church.

I believe this is true of you, and of many.

But there are definitely those who show a sort of glee in finding fault with the Holy Father. Why would they do so? Perhaps they don't really believe he is the Pope? But even many who don't believe so don't show joy in finding fault.

Maybe it's because it further justifies them in their own positions?

I don't know. But if this were always the attitude, if it really pained us in every instance to see fault but sometimes we had to consider the fault for the sake of truth, that would be a great improvement in the tone (in traddom in general, not just in this forum).

Anyway, that is an aside.

I agree, but this goes both ways. You are much more likely to meet someone who says "that must be right, no matter what, because the pope said it" than the opposite and frankly if people doubt what modern popes say when it sounds dodgy who can blame them? 50 years of watering down and contradicting catholic teaching, the sex scandal etc... have undermined peoples confidence


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 11:49 AM)James02 Wrote: Vox, you see nothing wrong with this?  Not even a little problem?  Just a great speech?

Pope Leo Wrote:The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium

Leo the Great Wrote:"Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that 'all that is not of faith is sin,' we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion"

Pope Benedict Wrote:  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups.

Hat tip to southpaw.

Just to be exact: the first two quotes talk about communion. The third talks about a "spirit of profound communion."

I'm not sure what that is, but it's not the same thing. Pope Benedict could easily be talking about an approach ruled by charity which seeks to begin a relationship with those outside of Catholic communion, in order to establish what is held in common first.

The first two quotes also talk about the non-Catholics groups and their status. The third talks about the Church's approach (the "failure to value and appreciate.")

I don't know ... I'm not comfortable with the phrase. It's not clear. But there's no obvious contradiction either.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:07 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:25 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:06 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: There are two issues here.

1. What the Pope said is okay or not okay.

2. Whether the people who say that the Pope's words were okay are (a) actually saying the words were okay or (b) saying it doesn't matter, put your head in the sand, the Pope is always right, just trust blindly.

CC was accusing people of saying (b), but no one is actually saying (b). Vox is pointing out that they are saying (a) which is a totally different position to take (and which preserves the view the we should be reasonable, we can use our minds, we can open our eyes - but comes to a different conclusion than those who say the Pope's words are problematic).

So without even forcing a side, I think Vox (who can clarify if I'm mistaken) is really saying that CC is off with his (quite unfair) characterization. "I see the problems with the Pope's words, so if you think they are okay, you must think we should be naive and act like we don't have reason."

The problem is how much of peoples conclusions come from a presumption that actually the pope might be right because he's pope? Would those people come to the same conclusion if any old person said it or if it was just some private thoughts written in the popes diary? Judging from a lot of arguments that I've had with people on the magisterium I think the answer to that is obviously, No.

The other issue is that I haven't seen any cogent argument advanced that the popes words are fine, I've read several people saying this but no ones actually offered to prove or show it. Considering that several people have done the opposite i.e advanced cogent arguments that the popes words are problematic, its reasonable to not be very convinced by those who think the popes words are perfectly fine.

CC may or may not be right in this particular occasion  but there is a pattern of behaviour of some that resembles what he say, even if it might not have happened on this thread and there have been several threads where peoples arguments boil down to "the pope can't be wrong so you are wrong"

I'm not sure there is any such pattern. Are you sure you are not exaggerating? When we disagree it's easy to see more flaws in the other party than there really are, or to exaggerate them.

Who said the pope is right because he's pope?

Based on the days (in total) I've spent debating those issues, yes I do think i'm right and no I don't think i'm exaggerating. Based too on the fact that no one has presented a cogent argument or in fact any argument that he's right I also think i'm at least partially correct.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:09 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:01 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:11 AM)Walty Wrote: ... it is NEVER easy to find fault in the Holy Father or any of his cardinals.  It always hurts.  It always makes us lament for the Church.

I believe this is true of you, and of many.

But there are definitely those who show a sort of glee in finding fault with the Holy Father. Why would they do so? Perhaps they don't really believe he is the Pope? But even many who don't believe so don't show joy in finding fault.

Maybe it's because it further justifies them in their own positions?

I don't know. But if this were always the attitude, if it really pained us in every instance to see fault but sometimes we had to consider the fault for the sake of truth, that would be a great improvement in the tone (in traddom in general, not just in this forum).

Anyway, that is an aside.

I agree, but this goes both ways. You are much more likely to meet someone who says "that must be right, no matter what, because the pope said it" than the opposite and frankly if people doubt what modern popes say when it sounds dodgy who can blame them? 50 years of watering down and contradicting catholic teaching, the sex scandal etc... have undermined peoples confidence

We should establish this view more clearly, because I'm not seeing it. Even when I was a raging CAF/EWTN/NCRegister neo-cath, I didn't actually believe everything the Pope said was right. I would argue with Protestants about papal infallibility because they thought we actually thought everything the Pope said was right, of which notion I tried to disabuse them.

Certainly as a trad, but as a trad who would probably be seen by some here as a softliner (will go to the NO if needed to fulfill obligation, prefer to go to a TLM that is regular), I do not think the pope is 'inerrant' - just deserving of charitable and careful interpretation.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:10 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:49 AM)James02 Wrote: Vox, you see nothing wrong with this?  Not even a little problem?  Just a great speech?

Pope Leo Wrote:The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium

Leo the Great Wrote:"Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that 'all that is not of faith is sin,' we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion"

Pope Benedict Wrote:  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups.

Hat tip to southpaw.

Just to be exact: the first two quotes talk about communion. The third talks about a "spirit of profound communion."

I'm not sure what that is, but it's not the same thing. Pope Benedict could easily be talking about an approach ruled by charity which seeks to begin a relationship with those outside of Catholic communion, in order to establish what is held in common first.

The first two quotes also talk about the non-Catholics groups and their status. The third talks about the Church's approach (the "failure to value and appreciate.")

I don't know ... I'm not comfortable with the phrase. It's not clear. But there's no obvious contradiction either.

Even if you are right, and I really don't think you are, you prove too much, the phrase is ambigous and the pope would be censured for a "badly expressed proposition". It's sad that a pope would potentially fall under a censure, no matter how minor.

Frankly though I think your argument does not hold water, as a whole the thing reeks of indifferentism, the pope states that god can work outside of the church, god can work in different ways, its all good, it reflects his diversity and "imagination",  we should value what God does outside the church and be sorry for the church's failings. There is no mention of the uniqueness of the Church, no mention of what God ordinarily does only through the Church or what in fact he only does through the Church, no prayer or mention of or for conversion, nothing, its as if they and the Church are entirely the same, entirely equal and both need to respect each other. In fact this is confirmed explicitly when the pope says
Quote: and that it is possible to work together in the cause of the Kingdom of God in different ways, even offering a simple glass of water to a missionary (9:41).

As if the Church and those outside it were just different ways of doing the same thing!
and again later the holy Father says
Quote: We must all, however, be always able to appreciate and esteem each other, praising the Lord for the infinite “imagination” with which he works in the Church and in the world.


How is this not blatant indifferentism?



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:14 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:09 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:01 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:11 AM)Walty Wrote: ... it is NEVER easy to find fault in the Holy Father or any of his cardinals.  It always hurts.  It always makes us lament for the Church.

I believe this is true of you, and of many.

But there are definitely those who show a sort of glee in finding fault with the Holy Father. Why would they do so? Perhaps they don't really believe he is the Pope? But even many who don't believe so don't show joy in finding fault.

Maybe it's because it further justifies them in their own positions?

I don't know. But if this were always the attitude, if it really pained us in every instance to see fault but sometimes we had to consider the fault for the sake of truth, that would be a great improvement in the tone (in traddom in general, not just in this forum).

Anyway, that is an aside.

I agree, but this goes both ways. You are much more likely to meet someone who says "that must be right, no matter what, because the pope said it" than the opposite and frankly if people doubt what modern popes say when it sounds dodgy who can blame them? 50 years of watering down and contradicting catholic teaching, the sex scandal etc... have undermined peoples confidence

We should establish this view more clearly, because I'm not seeing it. Even when I was a raging CAF/EWTN/NCRegister neo-cath, I didn't actually believe everything the Pope said was right. I would argue with Protestants about papal infallibility because they thought we actually thought everything the Pope said was right, of which notion I tried to disabuse them.

Certainly as a trad, but as a trad who would probably be seen by some here as a softliner (will go to the NO if needed to fulfill obligation, prefer to go to a TLM that is regular), I do not think the pope is 'inerrant' - just deserving of charitable and careful interpretation.

People rarely admit it, but practically that is how some people on here act. The phrase "benefit of the debt" often becomes a coverall to cover up the most absurd interpretations of things, all based on an explicit or implict refusal to accept the by far more likely conclusion, namely that the pope is wrong.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:21 PM)TrentCath Wrote: Even if you are right, and I really don't think you are, you prove too much, the phrase is ambigous and the pope would be censured for a "badly expressed proposition". It's sad that a pope would potentially fall under a censure, no matter how minor.

Censures were not given that way. If someone who wasn't the pope wrote this 80 years ago, they would be asked about it and be able to clarify it before being censured. If censures were actually automatically given for ambiguity, we would all be in trouble!  The Pope is not putting forth a formal proposition. It was an Angelus address.

(10-22-2012, 12:25 PM)TrentCath Wrote: People rarely admit it, but practically that is how some people on here act. The phrase "benefit of the debt" often becomes a coverall to cover up the most absurd interpretations of things, all based on an explicit or implict refusal to accept the by far more likely conclusion, namely that the pope is wrong.

If a major part of your argument is going to be that people have this view, you should be able to demonstrate it clearly. I understand you suspect it, but it is far from established. I imagine in your eyes I am one of the "softliners" but I am very, very far from believing that the pope cannot be wrong. That's why I think you are wrong in this.

Also in general, we should deal with people's words and claims. If people "rarely admit it," you could be wrong. We can know someone intimately and have an idea of what they "really believe" if only they would "admit it," but we are fallible and are not mindreaders. It's even more likely that we can be wrong in our assessment of what people we disagree with believe but "rarely admit."