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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:33 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:21 PM)TrentCath Wrote: Even if you are right, and I really don't think you are, you prove too much, the phrase is ambigous and the pope would be censured for a "badly expressed proposition". It's sad that a pope would potentially fall under a censure, no matter how minor.

Censures were not given that way. If someone who wasn't the pope wrote this 80 years ago, they would be asked about it and be able to clarify it before being censured. If censures were actually automatically given for ambiguity, we would all be in trouble!  The Pope is not putting forth a formal proposition. It was an Angelus address.

(10-22-2012, 12:25 PM)TrentCath Wrote: People rarely admit it, but practically that is how some people on here act. The phrase "benefit of the debt" often becomes a coverall to cover up the most absurd interpretations of things, all based on an explicit or implict refusal to accept the by far more likely conclusion, namely that the pope is wrong.

If a major part of your argument is going to be that people have this view, you should be able to demonstrate it clearly. I understand you suspect it, but it is far from established. I imagine in your eyes I am one of the "softliners" but I am very, very far from believing that the pope cannot be wrong. That's why I think you are wrong in this.

Also in general, we should deal with people's words and claims. If people "rarely admit it," you could be wrong. We can know someone intimately and have an idea of what they "really believe" if only they would "admit it," but we are fallible and are not mindreaders. It's even more likely that we can be wrong in our assessment of what people we disagree with believe but "rarely admit."

Uh actually I am pretty sure that censures were given exactly like that, they might well clarify it, but their original statement would still be censurable.

As for your advice, i reject it, the evidence of the attitude on here by some people is overwhelming.

But this is all moot, whats most telling is that no cogent argument, no argument at all has been made showing that the naysayers are wrong and the popes words are absolutely fine.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:46 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:33 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Censures were not given that way. If someone who wasn't the pope wrote this 80 years ago, they would be asked about it and be able to clarify it before being censured. If censures were actually automatically given for ambiguity, we would all be in trouble!  The Pope is not putting forth a formal proposition. It was an Angelus address.

Uh actually I am pretty sure that censures were given exactly like that, they might well clarify it, but their original statement would still be censurable.

An Angelus address is essentially like a homily. Homilies were censured for ambiguity?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 01:01 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:46 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:33 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Censures were not given that way. If someone who wasn't the pope wrote this 80 years ago, they would be asked about it and be able to clarify it before being censured. If censures were actually automatically given for ambiguity, we would all be in trouble!  The Pope is not putting forth a formal proposition. It was an Angelus address.

Uh actually I am pretty sure that censures were given exactly like that, they might well clarify it, but their original statement would still be censurable.

An Angelus address is essentially like a homily. Homilies were censured for ambiguity?

I would hope so!

Certainly a bishop wouldn't let a priest get away with that sort of scandalous ambiguity in the past, and in the case of a pope it is much worse.

That said, this is supposing you are right, you are not, so the issue of the pope making a statement that is contrary to catholic teaching remains.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - newyorkcatholic - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 01:20 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 01:01 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:46 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 12:33 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Censures were not given that way. If someone who wasn't the pope wrote this 80 years ago, they would be asked about it and be able to clarify it before being censured. If censures were actually automatically given for ambiguity, we would all be in trouble!  The Pope is not putting forth a formal proposition. It was an Angelus address.

Uh actually I am pretty sure that censures were given exactly like that, they might well clarify it, but their original statement would still be censurable.

An Angelus address is essentially like a homily. Homilies were censured for ambiguity?

I would hope so!

Certainly a bishop wouldn't let a priest get away with that sort of scandalous ambiguity in the past, and in the case of a pope it is much worse.

That said, this is supposing you are right, you are not, so the issue of the pope making a statement that is contrary to catholic teaching remains.

I would guess that homilies and talks were full of all sorts of ambiguity. It requires a specific context (a written work that is edited and reviewed prior to publication) to avoid ambiguity.

Let any of the older folks answer this: in the old days, did you ever hear a priest say something others considered ambiguous? Did it bring down a censure from Rome?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Adeodatus01 - 10-22-2012

(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Oh, like Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae and only distributing Communion on the tongue and Anglicanorum coetibus and the Benedictine Arrangement and....



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Walty - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 12:01 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 11:11 AM)Walty Wrote: ... it is NEVER easy to find fault in the Holy Father or any of his cardinals.  It always hurts.  It always makes us lament for the Church.

I believe this is true of you, and of many.

But there are definitely those who show a sort of glee in finding fault with the Holy Father. Why would they do so? Perhaps they don't really believe he is the Pope? But even many who don't believe so don't show joy in finding fault.

Maybe it's because it further justifies them in their own positions?

I don't know. But if this were always the attitude, if it really pained us in every instance to see fault but sometimes we had to consider the fault for the sake of truth, that would be a great improvement in the tone (in traddom in general, not just in this forum).

Anyway, that is an aside.

Unfortunately this isn't always the case.  I do think that sometimes there can be a certain joy in an otherwise ambiguous and vague lot of Catholicism when someone shows their hand a bit more than usual, but this isn't rejoicing in one holding heretical views, it is a rejoicing in the hope that this will bring more people to the truth.

Apart from that, there should be no rejoicing to find anyone in error, and that applies to both those inside of the Church and those outside of it.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - JayneK - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 11:01 AM)TrentCath Wrote: it has to be said Vox that even though you've repeated it many times, It is not at all clear to many on this thread that actually the popes words are perfectly fine and I haven't actually seen an argument that they are, I've just been told that if a Catholic goes and reads the catechism and studies church teaching they will realise this, but people have done that and they completely disagree with the conclusion you have come to.

I keep getting told that it is obvious that current teachings contradict pre-VII teachings and if I can't see that I must be stupid or deliberately misunderstanding.  There are a lot of people on this forum, including you, who refuse to acknowledge that a knowledgeable, intellectually honest person of good will could come to a conclusion that disagrees with their own.  This attitude is not reserved to one side or the other of the debates we have here.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Walty - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 01:36 PM)Adeodatus01 Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Oh, like Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae and only distributing Communion on the tongue and Anglicanorum coetibus and the Benedictine Arrangement and....

All of these are (probably) good things but that doesn't consecrate and sanctify everything he does.  


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Adeodatus01 - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 01:41 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 01:36 PM)Adeodatus01 Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Oh, like Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae and only distributing Communion on the tongue and Anglicanorum coetibus and the Benedictine Arrangement and....

All of these are (probably) good things but that doesn't consecrate and sanctify everything he does.  

You are right about that. It was Mith who invoked "everything else he's done as a pontiff" so I just wanted to point out some things that His Holiness has done.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - JuniorCouncilor - 10-22-2012

At best, this seems to be il papa addressing a problem that scarcely exists, and scarcely matters even if it does.  At worst (and, I fear, more likely) it is one more instance of  indifferentism.

The speech, outside of the context of the rest of his public life, might be unimpeachable.  As the matter stands, I think the opposite is true.