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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Adeodatus01 - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 03:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 01:36 PM)Adeodatus01 Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Oh, like Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae and only distributing Communion on the tongue and Anglicanorum coetibus and the Benedictine Arrangement and....

Such things only make matters worse, and build a stronger case of modernism against him.

That's in the running for "most unhinged thing I've ever read on this site". So you're actually saying that the case that Pope Benedict XVI is a heretic is made stronger by the fact that he opened the TLM to all Catholics without any need for indults or further permissions, encouraged it and admonished the bishops to assist its propagation? That the case of his heresy is stronger because he only gives Communion on the tongue?

Either this is a strange Kaufmanesque deconstructive comedy performance or you're off your meds, man.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-22-2012

I feel compelled to quote myself:

"Notice the contrast of such willingness to criticize and stand in the position of judgement when finding wrong, but such reluctance to make light of good amongst one's enemies, which must be mitigated and qualified until in the end it really just brings us back to a criticism and fault finding. ... And notice how the Pope has to always be criticized. If he says the Church needs "a renewed enthusiasm in her faith in Jesus Christ, the only Savior of the world" we can't take joy even in that. We have to quote this text and that text, and look at, again, the "whole" which negates what he says. ... Notice how whatever positive input there is in this and similar equations, he never gets to a positive."

So freeing up the TLM is really a plan to subvert it.
Seeking reconciliation with the SSPX is really a plan to destroy it.
Adding bells and whistles to the New Mass is more destructive to the Faith than clown masses.
Writing an article about ad orientem is really a modernist essay duping us into complacence.
Etc.

He's always leading us down the primrose path to destruction. We need a new Screwtape Letters featuring the "modernist Benedict".

(10-22-2012, 03:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: BXVI has nothing emblematic of his work, because his work as a pontiff is continually contradicting.

Hermeneutic of continuity!  :doh:


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Mithrandylan - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 08:21 PM)Adeodatus01 Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 03:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-22-2012, 01:36 PM)Adeodatus01 Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Oh, like Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae and only distributing Communion on the tongue and Anglicanorum coetibus and the Benedictine Arrangement and....

Such things only make matters worse, and build a stronger case of modernism against him.

That's in the running for "most unhinged thing I've ever read on this site". So you're actually saying that the case that Pope Benedict XVI is a heretic is made stronger by the fact that he opened the TLM to all Catholics without any need for indults or further permissions, encouraged it and admonished the bishops to assist its propagation? That the case of his heresy is stronger because he only gives Communion on the tongue?

Either this is a strange Kaufmanesque deconstructive comedy performance or you're off your meds, man.

Did you read my whole post?  I edited it about 10 minutes after I posted to explain my thoughts.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 11:49 AM)James02 Wrote: Vox, you see nothing wrong with this?  Not even a little problem?  Just a great speech?

[quote='Pope Leo'] The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium

Leo the Great Wrote:"Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that 'all that is not of faith is sin,' we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion"

Pope Benedict Wrote:  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups.

Hat tip to southpaw. [quote]

No, I don't see anything wrong. Read what I wrote. There is either some level of communion or there is no communion. Pope Leo wasn't talking to Prots; they weren't around yet. Neither was Leo. Protestants -- those with valid Baptism -- are members of the Church though manifest heretics, and are beholden to the Pope whether they know it or not. I.e., they are not "outside Catholic communion and alien to the Church" totally. There is "communion" insofar as there are shared Baptism and doctrine. They are wrong in some matter or another and need to be preached the fullness of the Truth. Your typical EWTNer understand this just fine because the point has been stressed to the detriment of many other Truths, but it's still true. But if the CAF types can get this, I'm sure trads can, too.




Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-22-2012

Vox,
Both Dr. Ludwig Ott (p. 311) and Very Rev. Tanquerey (vol. I, p. 160.) teach that material heretics are not members of the Catholic Church, as they are separated from her government and publicly belong to false sects.  Their baptism, however, does put them under the Church's jurisdiction.

Edit:  Add Hervé (vol. I, sec. 448, p. 455, 1934 ed.) and Abp. Zubizarreta (sec. 336, p. 202, 1946 ed.) to the list.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-22-2012

(10-22-2012, 09:41 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Vox,
Both Dr. Ludwig Ott (p. 311) and Very Rev. Tanquerey (vol. I, p. 160.) (and I'm sure I can find others) teach that material heretics are not members of the Catholic Church, as they are separated from her government and publicly belong to false sects.  Their baptism, however, does put them under the Church's jurisdiction.

SaintSebastian has already showed to you that membership and communion are distinct concepts. You didn't ever answer him.

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3451169.msg33772256.html#msg33772256


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-22-2012

Scriptorium,
Maybe you -- or SaintSebastian, if he sees this thread -- can explain what is meant when it's said that there's an "imperfect communion" between the Catholic Church and the Eastern schismatic sect.  They are explicitly described as "wounded" "true particular Churches" of "the universal Church/single Church of Christ."  If they are not "true Churches" of Christ's Church, then what are they Churches of?  There is not a "Church" other than the Church, is there?  And how does this not somehow become a federation of communities, divided by faith and government, but united by an invisible bond?

No one's answered that question, and I can show you an article or two (from EWTN) which pretty much admit what I've described above, but then go on to say that further study needs to be done.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

(10-22-2012, 08:37 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: I feel compelled to quote myself:

"Notice the contrast of such willingness to criticize and stand in the position of judgement when finding wrong, but such reluctance to make light of good amongst one's enemies, which must be mitigated and qualified until in the end it really just brings us back to a criticism and fault finding. ... And notice how the Pope has to always be criticized. If he says the Church needs "a renewed enthusiasm in her faith in Jesus Christ, the only Savior of the world" we can't take joy even in that. We have to quote this text and that text, and look at, again, the "whole" which negates what he says. ... Notice how whatever positive input there is in this and similar equations, he never gets to a positive."

So freeing up the TLM is really a plan to subvert it.
Seeking reconciliation with the SSPX is really a plan to destroy it.
Adding bells and whistles to the New Mass is more destructive to the Faith than clown masses.
Writing an article about ad orientem is really a modernist essay duping us into complacence.
Etc.

He's always leading us down the primrose path to destruction. We need a new Screwtape Letters featuring the "modernist Benedict".

(10-22-2012, 03:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: BXVI has nothing emblematic of his work, because his work as a pontiff is continually contradicting.

Hermeneutic of continuity!  :doh:

As usual you can't actually deal with anything that's said so you come up with straw men and other sophisms.

a) there is no point quoting the hermenuitic of continuity if people deny that that exists, and certainly I fail to see its relevance when it is clear that two things contradict each other

b) the things you list trads saying could all be true, but they really have little relevance to this thread, which is to do with the pope making dodgy statements pretty much 24/7.

c) the usual "trads are judgmental and moany" lark isn't going to cut it, there are genuine objections being made here and trying to fob them off with "you complain too much" isn't going to convice anyone


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

(10-22-2012, 09:27 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [quote='James02' pid='1094907' dateline='1350920983']
Vox, you see nothing wrong with this?  Not even a little problem?  Just a great speech?

[quote='Pope Leo'] The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium

Leo the Great Wrote:"Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that 'all that is not of faith is sin,' we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion"

Pope Benedict Wrote:  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups.

Hat tip to southpaw.
Quote:No, I don't see anything wrong. Read what I wrote. There is either some level of communion or there is no communion. Pope Leo wasn't talking to Prots; they weren't around yet. Neither was Leo. Protestants -- those with valid Baptism -- are members of the Church though manifest heretics, and are beholden to the Pope whether they know it or not. I.e., they are not "outside Catholic communion and alien to the Church" totally. There is "communion" insofar as there are shared Baptism and doctrine. They are wrong in some matter or another and need to be preached the fullness of the Truth. Your typical EWTNer understand this just fine because the point has been stressed to the detriment of many other Truths, but it's still true. But if the CAF types can get this, I'm sure trads can, too.


i'm sorry vox but i'm confused, what is the difference between protestants and these heretics? You do realise that there were validly baptised heretics back then right? Regardless have you not seen the numerous authors and no less than three theological manuals which claim that heretics are cut off from the church, validly baptised or not, unless they are in good faith i.e invincibly ignorant? Can anyone bring up any pre conciliar sources to support these assertions? i, for one, would like to read them, as the leading manualists i.e tanquerey, ott etc... clearly state otherwise


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2012

Heretics, properly speaking, are not and cannot be part of the Church.

They're made void of Christ and have altogether fallen from grace (Gal. 5:4), just like the Judaisers of old.