FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Church (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Forum: Catholicism (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren (/showthread.php?tid=58322)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

The problem for me is that Group B finds it quite easy to dig up facts, references and in short substantiate its belief, whereas Group A aside from often going far further than group b in its interpretation of what the pope says, is that it often does not, cannot or cannot substantiate as well its belief.

Clearly I would be in group b, without going into strict definitions of unorthodoxy, how unorthodox, canonical terms and so on.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 09:10 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: Reposted to supply a "cogent" argument with new meditation.

Life is a series of acts, some good, some bad, which taken together form a whole, and defined solely by its position in the present. Some are here attempting to deny a good act, by appealing to the whole at this point in someone's life. I think we are worried too, that if we gave praise, we'd be compromising some core position. These people do good works in the name of Jesus, however filled with confusion and error they may be. The fact that we cannot find in ourselves to "come down" and take joy in that shows that we lack charity for our neighbor. Now some will come back and say that really what matters is going to heaven. And that on its face will look charitable, will look like the real optimum Catholic position, but they won't actually have charity in any concrete way that will get them there. It's this sort of abstract wish, this ideal while no position between heresy and complete conversion can be conceded (because all they can do is "scatter"). It's sort of like looking for a wife, but she has to be perfect. No physical flaws. No behavioral foibles. Etc. I won't settle for anything less, or for someone "on the way". Not seeing the good that can be harnessed and developed, and the transforming power of love. Before the good act of conversion to Christ, comes a good act of a heretic "going to hell". Notice the contrast of such willingness to criticize and stand in the position of judgement when finding wrong, but such reluctance to make light of good amongst one's enemies, which must be mitigated and qualified until in the end it really just brings us back to a criticism and fault finding. Note how we can't take joy because ultimately they're going to hell. No middle vision of their life. Only hell or conversion. A story without a middle. And notice how the Pope has to always be criticized. If he says the Church needs "a renewed enthusiasm in her faith in Jesus Christ, the only Savior of the world" we can't take joy even in that. We have to quote this text and that text, and look at, again, the "whole" which negates what he says. Good savior statement + bad Luther statement = bad Pope. Notice how whatever positive input there is in this and similar equations, he never gets to a positive. (I am sure even if he consecrated Russia just as our Lady said, no few will have internet postings showing what was wrong with it.) Although, in contradiction, we can't look at the whole of JPII. We have to overly focus on a few events. Funny how that always fits the argument one is making. My mind understands that someone doesn't have strong faith in their position when they are unable to concede something against their position.

Maybe the next address by the Pope should be titled "Take Joy in the Good of our Pope". Just to get us to loosen up enough to recognize these things to bring us into a holistic viewpoint. Or as Fox News would put it "Fair and Balanced". That's why I user the words "rigor" and "rigorism" so much. It's like some tensed up person. He ain't changin' his mind for nothin'. I worry mostly, honestly, about the most rigorist, who may not be able to accept when Jesus actually gives them a solution, because it may not be in line with their views, and he won't have the suppleness of mind to see it and make the shift. (In fact, shift is antithetical to such a person.)

Today's meditation: "I sent you to reap what you have not worked for; others have done the work, and you are sharing the fruits of their work."

The statements is just as much of a strawman now, as it was last time you posted it.

O ye miserable trads that whinge and moan and are so extreme, why can't you be more reasonable? is a pretty good summary of what you've written. It may surprise you but yes I do actually expect a pope to uphold the uniqueness of the Church and not try and claim that actually it doesn't matter whether you are Catholic or not as we are all working together for the same goal in different ways, that this reflects Gods infinite imagination, that we should recognise the purported good done by non catholics and deprecate holy mother the Church.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 09:48 AM)TrentCath Wrote: It may surprise you but yes I do actually expect a pope to uphold the uniqueness of the Church and not try and claim that actually it doesn't matter whether you are Catholic or not as we are all working together for the same goal in different ways, that this reflects Gods infinite imagination, that we should recognise the purported good done by non catholics and deprecate holy mother the Church.

And yet he has said none of these things. The Pope teaches that the Church is unique. "The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity rooted in the apostolic succession between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: This is the single Church of Christ. ... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth" (Dominus Jesus, 16). Nor does he hold that being Catholic or not doesn't matter, or that we all work for the same goal. Just recently he drew attention to the lack in the document Nostra Aetate, that it did not address the negative aspects of religion ("sick and distorted forms of religion"). And everyone knows, if they think about it, that this is his opinion because ecumenism would never be a priority if we all didn't care about divisions. The ecumenical movement is an attempt to bridge the divisions. So on its face ecumenism itself already proves that the divisions matter to each interlocutor. Furthermore, there are two reasons which suggest that the Pope's message is timely. One, in order to love your neighbor, you need to find something loveable about him. Finding good in his actions is a place to begin. In our time of division, hatred, bickering, and jealousy, this seems to be a corrective. Two, it affirms God's actions amongst all people. His grace truly does extend to all. It is this extension of grace to those outside that makes a conversion even a possibility. Our joy in this prompting builds us up in our faith in Christ, and creates circumstances in which further acts are prompted. Since Benedict presupposes 1) that the acts are good, and are marked 2) by a right intention and respect, Benedict has already disqualified your objections especially the ones relating to deprecating the Church.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 10:18 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 09:48 AM)TrentCath Wrote: It may surprise you but yes I do actually expect a pope to uphold the uniqueness of the Church and not try and claim that actually it doesn't matter whether you are Catholic or not as we are all working together for the same goal in different ways, that this reflects Gods infinite imagination, that we should recognise the purported good done by non catholics and deprecate holy mother the Church.

And yet he has said none of these things. The Pope teaches that the Church is unique. "The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity rooted in the apostolic succession between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: This is the single Church of Christ. ... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth" (Dominus Jesus, 16). Nor does he hold that being Catholic or not doesn't matter, or that we all work for the same goal. Just recently he drew attention to the lack in the document Nostra Aetate, that it did not address the negative aspects of religion ("sick and distorted forms of religion"). And everyone knows, if they think about it, that this is his opinion because ecumenism would never be a priority if we all didn't care about divisions. The ecumenical movement is an attempt to bridge the divisions. So on its face ecumenism itself already proves that the divisions matter to each interlocutor. Furthermore, there are two reasons which suggest that the Pope's message is timely. One, in order to love your neighbor, you need to find something loveable about him. Finding good in his actions is a place to begin. In our time of division, hatred, bickering, and jealousy, this seems to be a corrective. Two, it affirms God's actions amongst all people. His grace truly does extend to all. It is this extension of grace to those outside that makes a conversion even a possibility. Our joy in this prompting builds us up in our faith in Christ, and creates circumstances in which further acts are prompted. Since Benedict presupposes 1) that the acts are good, and are marked 2) by a right intention and respect, Benedict has already disqualified your objections especially the ones relating to deprecating the Church.

And yet he has, in your very first post, among other statements made. The fact he contradicts himself and mixes good with bad, makes things worse not better.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-23-2012

[quote='Scriptorium' pid='1095491' dateline='1350997820'] These people do good works in the name of Jesus, however filled with confusion and error they may be. The fact that we cannot find in ourselves to "come down" and take joy in that shows that we lack charity for our neighbor. Now some will come back and say that really what matters is going to heaven. And that on its face will look charitable, will look like the real optimum Catholic position, but they won't actually have charity in any concrete way that will get them there. [quote]

Very well said. Beautiful.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 09:40 AM)TrentCath Wrote:   guess ultimately the problem is that there are two groups here, or rather at last two groups:

i) Group A sees the pope as basically orthodox but he sometimes makes statements that are ambigous
ii)Group B sees the pope as basically unorthodox and thus all of what he says is likely suspect 

You just gave yourself away. The thread is about a few paragraphs of text, not about how various groups see the Pope's orthodoxy. That right there is the problem I am talking about.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-23-2012

I'd like to make a couple of points:

1.  The new Ecclesiology

"One wondered if the image of the Mystical Body might be too narrow a starting point to define the many forms of belonging to the Church now found in the tangle of human history.  If we use the image of a body to describe 'belonging' we are limited only to the form of representation as 'member'.  Either one is or one is not a member, there are no other possibilities.  One can then ask if the image of the body was too restrictive, since there manifestly existed in reality intermediate degrees of belonging" (Cardinal Ratzinger, The Ecclesiology of Vatican II, 15 September 2001).

In contrast, Br. Alexis Bugnolo writes, "Nor can one's membership in the Church, spiritually, be 'partial', since what is spiritual is indivisible, and what brings about this communion is indivisible (the profession of the one truth faith, the baptismal character, charity, etc.).  This latter error of 'degrees of communion' is distinct from that of the scholastic phrase subsistit in; and admittedly it is this latter error, which reinterprets the former in an erroneous sense" (On the History and Significance of 'Subsistit in' in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium).

As regards my charge that the Church of Christ has become a federation of churches, Fr. Fernando Ocáriz (Vicar General of Opus Dei and consultant to the CDF) writes, "In other words, recognizing that those communities [the Eastern Orthodox], which are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, have the character of Churches also means necessarily that these Churches are — in an apparent paradox — portions of the one Church, that is to say, of the one Catholic Church, portions in an anomalous theological and canonical situation" (Christ's Church Subsists in the Catholic Church, taken from L'Osservatore Romano, 21 December 2005, p. 9).

What's more, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote of the "corrections" made to Pope Pius XII's teaching on the Mystical Body of Christ (op. cit).  The use of the concept "People of God" allowed Lumen Gentium to "describe the relationship of non-Catholic Christians to the Church as being 'in communion' and that of non-Christians as being 'ordered' to the Church where in both cases one relies on the idea of the People of God."  Previously, non-Catholics were "ordered" to the Church (Mystici Corporis Christ, n. 103).  They've since been promoted to being "in communion" with her.  Another factor noted by Ratzinger was that the Council integrated Protestant and Orthodox theology "into a more ample Catholic understanding."  Ratzinger calls attention to an Evangelical work titled, "The Pilgrim People of God" and goes on to write that the "Church will not be wholly herself until" the Second Coming, and notes that the phrase, People of God, "conveys the eschatological dynamic, the provisional and fragmentary nature of the Church."  This appears to contradict the teaching that the Church is one and undivided.  He also discusses the Eucharistic theology of the schismatic Russian theologians and how that's been incorporated into Church teaching.

All of this reminds me, however, of Pope Pius XII's warning, "What is expounded in the Encyclical Letters of the Roman Pontiffs concerning the nature and constitution of the Church, is deliberately and habitually neglected by some with the idea of giving force to a certain vague notion which they profess to have found in the ancient Fathers, especially the Greeks" (Humani Generis, 18.).  It isn't surprising that Cardinal Ratzinger mentions de Lubac's work on Eucharistic theology, and we should also remember that Pope Pius XII had de Lubac in mind, though without naming him, while writing this encyclical.

How can the Catholic Church be "undivided in herself and separated from any other" (J. de Groot, Summa Apologetica de Ecclesia Catholica) if she is corporately united and in "imperfect communion" with the "true particular Churches" of the Eastern schismatics?  Ask yourselves this:  Why are Protestants and Eastern Orthodox no longer required to abjure their errors before receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, when Holy Communion is a sign of our unity of faith and of communion with the Roman Pontiff?


2.  The new Ecumenism

Ecumenism, in its traditional understanding, has "the aim of reconciling dissident Christians to the Catholic Church" (Holy Office, Instruction, 20 December 1949).  And again, "the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it" (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, n. 10.).

Now, however, "'it is evident that the work of preparing and reconciling those individuals who desire full Catholic communion is of its nature distinct from ecumenical action, but there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God'.[50]  Therefore, the work of ecumenism does not remove the right or take away the responsibility of proclaiming in fullness the Catholic faith to other Christians, who freely wish to receive it" (CDF, Doctrinal Note on Some Aspects of Evangelization, n. 12/e).

Why is "ecumenism" now distinct -- by its nature -- from the proclaiming of the Gospel with the hope that they will convert?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 10:25 AM)TrentCath Wrote: And yet he has, in your very first post, among other statements made. The fact he contradicts himself and mixes good with bad, makes things worse not better.

There is no proof in these statements.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - DustinsDad - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 10:18 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 09:48 AM)TrentCath Wrote: It may surprise you but yes I do actually expect a pope to uphold the uniqueness of the Church and not try and claim that actually it doesn't matter whether you are Catholic or not as we are all working together for the same goal in different ways, that this reflects Gods infinite imagination, that we should recognise the purported good done by non catholics and deprecate holy mother the Church.

And yet he has said none of these things. The Pope teaches that the Church is unique. "The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity rooted in the apostolic succession between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: This is the single Church of Christ. ... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth" (Dominus Jesus, 16). Nor does he hold that being Catholic or not doesn't matter, or that we all work for the same goal. Just recently he drew attention to the lack in the document Nostra Aetate, that it did not address the negative aspects of religion ("sick and distorted forms of religion"). And everyone knows, if they think about it, that this is his opinion because ecumenism would never be a priority if we all didn't care about divisions. The ecumenical movement is an attempt to bridge the divisions. So on its face ecumenism itself already proves that the divisions matter to each interlocutor. Furthermore, there are two reasons which suggest that the Pope's message is timely. One, in order to love your neighbor, you need to find something loveable about him. Finding good in his actions is a place to begin. In our time of division, hatred, bickering, and jealousy, this seems to be a corrective. Two, it affirms God's actions amongst all people. His grace truly does extend to all. It is this extension of grace to those outside that makes a conversion even a possibility. Our joy in this prompting builds us up in our faith in Christ, and creates circumstances in which further acts are prompted. Since Benedict presupposes 1) that the acts are good, and are marked 2) by a right intention and respect, Benedict has already disqualified your objections especially the ones relating to deprecating the Church.
Well allrightythen ... If such wonderful elements of Sanctification and Truth are found outside the One True Church then the neocats are right...we are all on our way to heaven. Us Catholics are riding in the caddilac and the other folks are just in pintos, bicycles or on horseback. But we are all goin the same place so all is well. I can relax now.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - DustinsDad - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 12:43 PM)DustinsDad Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 10:18 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 09:48 AM)TrentCath Wrote: It may surprise you but yes I do actually expect a pope to uphold the uniqueness of the Church and not try and claim that actually it doesn't matter whether you are Catholic or not as we are all working together for the same goal in different ways, that this reflects Gods infinite imagination, that we should recognise the purported good done by non catholics and deprecate holy mother the Church.

And yet he has said none of these things. The Pope teaches that the Church is unique. "The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity rooted in the apostolic succession between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: This is the single Church of Christ. ... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth" (Dominus Jesus, 16). Nor does he hold that being Catholic or not doesn't matter, or that we all work for the same goal. Just recently he drew attention to the lack in the document Nostra Aetate, that it did not address the negative aspects of religion ("sick and distorted forms of religion"). And everyone knows, if they think about it, that this is his opinion because ecumenism would never be a priority if we all didn't care about divisions. The ecumenical movement is an attempt to bridge the divisions. So on its face ecumenism itself already proves that the divisions matter to each interlocutor. Furthermore, there are two reasons which suggest that the Pope's message is timely. One, in order to love your neighbor, you need to find something loveable about him. Finding good in his actions is a place to begin. In our time of division, hatred, bickering, and jealousy, this seems to be a corrective. Two, it affirms God's actions amongst all people. His grace truly does extend to all. It is this extension of grace to those outside that makes a conversion even a possibility. Our joy in this prompting builds us up in our faith in Christ, and creates circumstances in which further acts are prompted. Since Benedict presupposes 1) that the acts are good, and are marked 2) by a right intention and respect, Benedict has already disqualified your objections especially the ones relating to deprecating the Church.
Well allrightythen ... If such wonderful elements of Sanctification and Truth are found outside the One True Church then the neocats are right...we are all on our way to heaven. Us Catholics are riding in the caddilac and the other folks are just in pintos, bicycles or on horseback. But we are all goin the same place so all is well. I can relax now.
and ecumanism exists not to get everyone in the caddilac, but to get us all in some new yet to be conceived of vehicle ... That elusive search for "something" that we aren't quite sure what it is unity in diversity. Maybe the masons at the UN will tell us. Methinks they know exactly what it is.