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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 12:36 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 10:25 AM)TrentCath Wrote: And yet he has, in your very first post, among other statements made. The fact he contradicts himself and mixes good with bad, makes things worse not better.

There is no proof in these statements.

Careful what you wish for


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-23-2012

Quote: On 1, the fact is Christians are divided. These theologians are attempting to understand the Church as united and holy while still being divided and unholy.
 I am curious Script whether you are even aware that you are forced to play these rhetoric games.  First the straw man, and now this, the old switch-a-roo.  Do you even see it?  When you are forced to play these games, it means you are losing on the factual argument.

I'll assume you don't consciously play these games, it is just reflexive to make excuses.  The CHURCH is not divided and unholy.  Period.  That is the issue.  And the "Christians are divided" phrase, while superficially correct, does not adequately address the issue.  The prots are heretics that are separated from the CHURCH, they are outside the CHURCH, and they are on the path to hell.  That is the issue, and the Pope and the Vatican are ignoring it.  Many in the Vatican even disagree with this Catholic dogma.  That is a very serious issue.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-23-2012

Quote: On 2, ecumenism has changed because the Church has loosened conditions to foster more openness.
Compare to what the Church teaches:

Pope Leo XIII Wrote:“The underlying principle of these new opinions is that, in order to more easily attract those who differfrom her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living, but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. They contend that it would be opportune, in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them. It does not need many words, beloved son, to prove the falsity of these ideas if the nature and origin of the doctrine which the Church proposes are recalled to mind.”



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - JuniorCouncilor - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 03:13 PM)James02 Wrote: I'll assume you don't consciously play these games, it is just reflexive to make excuses.  The CHURCH is not divided and unholy.  Period.  That is the issue.  

This.  Second the period, too.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-23-2012

Quote: You statements doesn't follow. You're reading into Benedict things he isn't saying.
I'm QUOTING him.  "profound communion".  What are you talking about?

Quote:  Explain how ecumenism makes any sense if the Pope thinks that the divisions aren't real? Everybody knows about the divisions, it's just maybe they want to take a positive approach, or not bog themselves down with petty issues, or simply see that many of these issues are solved if they are successful, i.e., picking your battles.
  Non-sequitur.  Yes, everyone knows that a Lutheran is not a Catholic.  THE issue, is the recognition that these same Lutherans are completely outside of the Church, they preach heresy, and they are going to hell.  And there is no way a Catholic can think, do, or say anything in a "spirit of profound communion" with an "eccleisal group" that drags people to hell.  THAT is the issue.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-23-2012

Let us reacquaint ourselves with Catholic doctrine:  "We know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ because it alone has the marks of the true Church.  ...  The chief marks of the Church are four: It is one, holy, catholic or universal, and apostolic.  ...  We know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ because no other church has these four marks" (Official Revised Baltimore Catechism No. 2, qq. 153, 155, 160.).


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 02:20 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: It's not like with the dogma of the Holy Trinity, which can never be fully comprehended; instead, what we're concerned with is the nature and constitution of the Church, on which there already exists a clear body of teaching (but Ratzinger insisted that it had to be "corrected").  The Church's prelates have done nothing if not obscured it.

The nature of the Church is a great mystery which even Mystici Corporis touched on.

Pius XII Wrote:77. This communication of the Spirit of Christ is the channel through which all the gifts, powers, and extra-ordinary graces found superabundantly in the Head as in their source flow into all the members of the Church, and are perfected daily in them according to the place they hold in the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Thus the Church becomes, as it were, the filling out and the complement of the Redeemer, while Christ in a sense attains through the Church a fulness in all things. Herein we find the reason why, according to the opinion of Augustine already referred to, the mystical Head, which is Christ, and the Church, which here below as another Christ shows forth His person, constitute one new man, in whom heaven and earth are joined together in perpetuating the saving work of the Cross: Christ We mean, the Head and the Body, the whole Christ.

78. For indeed We are not ignorant of the fact that his profound truth - of our union with the Divine Redeemer and in particular of the indwelling of the Holy spirit in our souls - is shrouded in darkness by many a veil that impedes our power to understand and explain it, both because of the hidden nature of the doctrine itself, and of the limitations of our human intellect. But We know, too, that from well-directed and earnest study of this doctrine, and from the clash of diverse opinions and the discussion thereof, provided that these are regulated by the love of truth and by due submission to the Church, much light will be gained, which, in its turn will help to progress in kindred sacred sciences. Hence, We do not censure those who in various ways, and with diverse reasonings make every effort to understand and to clarify the mystery of this our wonderful union with Christ. But let all agree uncompromisingly on this, if they would not err from truth and from the orthodox teaching of the Church: to reject every kind of mystic union by which the faithful of Christ should in any way pass beyond the sphere of creatures and wrongly enter the divine, were it only to the extent of appropriating to themselves as their own but one single attribute of the eternal Godhead. And, moreover, let all hold this as certain truth, that all these activities are common to the most Blessed Trinity, insofar as they have God as supreme efficient cause.

79. It must also be borne in mind that there is question here of a hidden mystery, which during this earthly exile can only be dimly seen through a veil, and which no human words can express. The Divine Persons are said to indwell inasmuch as they are present to beings endowed with intelligence in a way that lies beyond human comprehension, and in a unique and very intimate manner which transcends all created nature, these creatures enter into relationship with Them through knowledge and love. If we would attain, in some measure, to a clearer perception of this truth, let us not neglect the method strongly recommended by the Vatican Council in similar cases, by which these mysteries are compared one with another and with the end to which they are directed, so that in the light which this comparison throws upon them we are able to discern, at least partially, the hidden things of God.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-23-2012

Lets see what the Church teaches shall we?

“Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”  UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302


‘It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church’ Council of Basel SESSION 11 4 February 1442 [Bull of union with the Copts]

‘11. In the words of St. Leo, who continues speaking about the Holy See of Peter: "It is necessary that the Church throughout the world be united and cleave to the center of Catholic unity and ecclesiastical communion, so that whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer shares in the divine mystery." St. Jerome adds: "Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is unholy. Those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the flood." Just as he who does not gather with Christ, so he who does not gather with Christ's Vicar on earth, clearly scatters. How can someone who destroys the holy authority of the Vicar of Christ and who infringes on his rights gather with him? It is through these rights that the pope is the center of unity, that he has the primacy of order and jurisdiction, and that he has the full power of nurturing, ruling, and governing the universal Church.’[iCOMMISSUM DIVINITUS ON CHURCH AND STATE ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI MAY 17, 1835
][/i]

‘3. Among the many deplorable evils which disturb and afflict both ecclesiastical and civil society, two stand out in our day and are justly considered to be the cause of the others. In effect, you are aware of the innumerable and fatal damages which the hideous error of indifferentism causes to Christian and civil society. It causes us to forget out duties to God in whom we live and act and have our being. It causes us to slacken our concern for holy religion and shakes almost to destruction the very basis of all law, justice, and virtue. There is little difference between this hideous form of indifference and the devilish system of indifference between the different religions. This belief embraces people who have strayed from the truth, who are enemies of the true faith and forget their own salvation, and who teach contradictory beliefs without firm doctrine. They make no distinction between the different creeds, agree with everybody, and maintain that the haven of eternal salvation is open to sectarians of any religion. The diversity of their teachings does not concern them as long as they agree to combat that which alone is the truth.[1]
4. You see, dearly beloved sons and venerable brothers, how much vigilance is needed to keep the disease of this terrible evil from infecting and killing your flocks. Do not cease to diligently defend your people against these pernicious errors. Saturate them with the doctrine of Catholic truth more accurately each day. Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children.[2] There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord,[3] outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church.[4] Thus, there can be no greater crime, no more hideous stain than to stand up against Christ, than to divide the Church engendered and purchased by His blood, than to forget evangelical love and to combat with the furor of hostile discord the harmony of the people of God.[5]
5. Divine worship consists in these two things: pious doctrines and good works, in such a way that doctrines without good works cannot please God, nor does God accept works divorced from religious doctrines. The narrow and difficult path which leads to life can be found not in the practice of the virtues alone or in the observance of precepts, but on the way of faith.[6] Constantly arouse your faithful people so that they will persevere ever more firmly and constantly in the profession of the Catholic religion. Let them likewise endeavor to assure their calling and their election by means of good works. While you work at the salvation of your flock, strive also, in all goodness, patience, and teaching, to recall the unfortunate strays to the one fold of Christ and to Catholic unity. Address to them especially these words of St. Augustine: "Come, brothers, if you wish, so that you may be grafted to the vine. We are saddened to see you thus cut off and lying so. Count the bishops who have occupied the See of Peter; see this uninterrupted succession of popes. See the rock against which the powers of hell will not be able to prevail."[7] "Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is an impious person. Whoever is not in Noah's ark will perish in the flood."[8]’ SINGULARI QUIDEM
ON THE CHURCH IN AUSTRIA  ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX  MARCH 17, 1856


‘7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.’ ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX  AUGUST 10, 1863

‘5. Next let Us start with the things which concern the faith which, as We mentioned above, some are endangering in order to introduce greater freedom for mixed marriages. You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the apostles, martyred St. Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: "Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God." Moreover, St. Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: "Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ." Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved." Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: "There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved." Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses and that which other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.’ SUMMO IUGITER STUDIO ON MIXED MARRIAGES ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI MAY 27, 1832

‘To Our Venerable Brethren, the Patriarchs,
Primates, Bishops, and Other Local Ordinaries Enjoying Peace and Communion with the Apostolic See.
Our first duty is to spread the name and reign of Christ more widely every day, and to call back the mutinous and the wandering to the bosom of the Church; this has occupied Our concern for a long time. …..3. To ensure that the Eastern Christians who have seceded will return to the one true Church, it is necessary to provide them with an abundance of holy ministers who, endowed with doctrine and piety, may persuade the others to accept the desired unity.’ ON PROPAGATION OF THE FAITH AND EASTERN CHURCHES CHRISTI NOMEN Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on December 24, 1894.

It does not teach us to hold hands and pray with them or be nice to them or enjoy the profound communion we have them or think that there are just doing what we are doing but differently.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-23-2012

(10-23-2012, 03:13 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: On 1, the fact is Christians are divided. These theologians are attempting to understand the Church as united and holy while still being divided and unholy.
  I am curious Script whether you are even aware that you are forced to play these rhetoric games.  First the straw man, and now this, the old switch-a-roo.  Do you even see it?  When you are forced to play these games, it means you are losing on the factual argument.

I'll assume you don't consciously play these games, it is just reflexive to make excuses.  The CHURCH is not divided and unholy.  Period.  That is the issue.  And the "Christians are divided" phrase, while superficially correct, does not adequately address the issue.  The prots are heretics that are separated from the CHURCH, they are outside the CHURCH, and they are on the path to hell.  That is the issue, and the Pope and the Vatican are ignoring it.  Many in the Vatican even disagree with this Catholic dogma.  That is a very serious issue.

You're kind of proving the point. If there weren't baptized people around on the path to hell, there would not be all these overtures to address it. What you seem to miss is they are not addressing it the way you want them to, but they are addressing it. Hopefully you can admit that. And when you say "the 'Christians are divided' phrase, while superficially correct, does not adequately address the issue," is precisely why the teaching of communion ecclesiology was proposed, to "adequately address the issue". Your statements about their separation from the Church are not denied. You may see something to this effect by an imprecise analogy when there is a separation between spouses, and even a legal break, but God does not recognize that severing the way we do. There is an "imperfect communion", but the bond is real. The indelible mark of baptism stays. Visible reality is not in line with invisible reality. One partner is righteous to the marriage bond, has honored their vow, while the other has committed an adultery. The baptized should be in full communion with the Christ and His Church. That's what the Pope is working for. You seem to have more trouble with the Pope not being fire and brimstone, kickin' ass and taking names. Are you disgusted with the "soft" parts of the Bible when our Lord is not like this?


(10-23-2012, 03:41 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Let us reacquaint ourselves with Catholic doctrine:  "We know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ because it alone has the marks of the true Church.  ...  The chief marks of the Church are four: It is one, holy, catholic or universal, and apostolic.  ...  We know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ because no other church has these four marks" (Official Revised Baltimore Catechism No. 2, qq. 153, 155, 160.).

That's why they were often referred to as negative marks. We've discussed this in other threads.

Cf. http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3453518.0.html


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-23-2012

TrentCath,
Your quote vandalism is immaterial, since they are not talking about what the Pope is. Find somewhere where they say that we shouldn't or can't take joy in good of non-Catholic Christians when imbued with respect and right intention. Thank you.