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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - JuniorCouncilor - 10-03-2012

(10-03-2012, 05:04 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Regarding the postive versus negative tones, I think the distinction lies in the object of the pronoucement.  In my experience--and this lines up with what I've read from a lot of saints--is the dire warnings work better to keep good Catholics as good Catholics.  When interacting with someone outside the Church, or someone with little care for sin, or someone who already thinks he is saved, etc., the dire warnings don't do much--the positive bears many more fruits.  The pre-Vatican II Popes and Councils tended to be doing just what the negative approach works best for--they are addressing Catholics and intervening to keep them Catholic.  From Vatican II on, the Council and Popes have also been addressing the whole world, and I think that accounts for the change in tone for better or worse (personally I think said change in tone is a mixed bag).

This is an interesting idea, and seems likely enough prima facie.  However, I strongly suspect that we have not only a high rate of people falling away (which would be bad enough) but also a drop in conversions as a result of this "positive" attitude.

Scriptorium,
I'll be the first to admit that I'm negative to a fault in some ways, but that this is one of them is definitely not obvious to me.

The bottom line is we need both, and in balance.  The modern hierarchy's "focus on the positive" far outweighs any focus on the negative among people who are trying to be good Catholics.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Crusading Philologist - 10-03-2012

(10-03-2012, 07:02 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-03-2012, 03:31 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: Good points throughout this thread, Scriptorium, and wise words from the Holy Father. Ironically, petty sectarianism is a constant temptation amongst Catholics.

Bonum diffusivum sui est

Honest question:  Was Pope Pius' condemnation of join prayer in the 1918 Code of Canon Law "petty sectarianism"?

No, I wouldn't say that. I was referring more to people who seem to want to set themselves up as gatekeepers or something like that, strictly regulating who can have any experience of God.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - JuniorCouncilor - 10-03-2012

(10-03-2012, 08:55 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(10-03-2012, 07:02 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-03-2012, 03:31 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: Good points throughout this thread, Scriptorium, and wise words from the Holy Father. Ironically, petty sectarianism is a constant temptation amongst Catholics.

Bonum diffusivum sui est

Honest question:  Was Pope Pius' condemnation of join prayer in the 1918 Code of Canon Law "petty sectarianism"?

No, I wouldn't say that. I was referring more to people who seem to want to set themselves up as gatekeepers or something like that, strictly regulating who can have any experience of God.

Dang right.  By divine decree, that's the Catholic Church's job.  Y'all usurpers can just bug off.

Wait, was that not where you were going with this?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Walty - 10-03-2012

(10-03-2012, 08:55 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(10-03-2012, 07:02 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-03-2012, 03:31 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: Good points throughout this thread, Scriptorium, and wise words from the Holy Father. Ironically, petty sectarianism is a constant temptation amongst Catholics.

Bonum diffusivum sui est

Honest question:  Was Pope Pius' condemnation of join prayer in the 1918 Code of Canon Law "petty sectarianism"?

No, I wouldn't say that. I was referring more to people who seem to want to set themselves up as gatekeepers or something like that, strictly regulating who can have any experience of God.

I'm not aware of any trads that claim that Protestants can't have genuine experiences of God, but if you're referring to pagan or blasphemous religions then it is a bit different.

You're a very intelligent person when it comes to philosophy.  I don't understand why you can't look at, say, a religious practice, see that it is antithetical to what we say about the nature of God, and deduce from that the practice cannot come from God.

You do with extreme things.  You wouldn't claim a group of pagans who sacrifice children are "experiencing God" (I hope), but with equally contradictory but less offensive things (like, say, experiencing God whilst praising to a "God" who gave words to a prophet which blaspheme the Trinity) you can't seem to make the connection.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Crusading Philologist - 10-03-2012

I might not say that pagans making human sacrifices are "experiencing God," but I think one could say that they are responding to the divine in a sense. Man feels that there is a state of enmity between God and himself, and he then concludes that blood sacrifice is necessary to restore proper relations. This impulse was taken up, fulfilled, and redeemed by Christ. Of course, we now identify with the Sacrificial Victim and see that ancient religiosity had been corrupted, but there was still some truth in it.

I think the problem with the common sort of integralism we see is that it assumes a secular and nihilistic background devoid of meaning with Catholicism standing out against this background as a religion. This sort of integralist than sets up his set of propositions as the one path to meaning. What I would prefer to this is a Christocentric reading of history and society: the Church is not just "a religion," but rather the recapitulation and redemption of paganism and man's natural impulses. Christianity is in tune with man's nature and a continuation and uplifting of his attempts to discover truth while also being the most extraordinary and unexpected development in history. Other traditions, then, are not just man-made constructs that can be completely explained by sociology, but are instead mixtures of anticipations and corruptions of primordial Truth. Looking back on them now, we can see that they were always pointing toward the arrival of Christ. I believe Joseph de Maistre somewhere says that he would not accept Christianity if all of its doctrines could not be found in altered form in paganism. This is the view of human history I would take.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Walty - 10-03-2012

I agree with this Golden Myth about Christ being found in other religions, but that doesn't mean that the religious experiences themselves are always good.  That's far too close to the anonymous Christian to me.

When St. Paul said that one couldn't eat with pagans because their meat was blessed by demons, did that mean that those pagans were still experiencing God?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Kaisaras Auguste - 10-03-2012

Gnostic "teachings" are very different from Catholic Doctrine. Also, there are various sects and lines, from lax to strict.

Gnosticism was a remix of pagan myths, neo-Platonic philosophy, and some borrowed concepts from Christianity and Judaism.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Crusading Philologist - 10-03-2012

(10-03-2012, 10:21 PM)Walty Wrote: I agree with this Golden Myth about Christ being found in other religions, but that doesn't mean that the religious experiences themselves are always good.  That's far too close to the anonymous Christian to me.

When St. Paul said that one couldn't eat with pagans because their meat was blessed by demons, did that mean that those pagans were still experiencing God?

No, but I would say that they were acting out of a natural desire for God that was hijacked by the powers and principalities, resulting in a fall into demon worship.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Walty - 10-03-2012

(10-03-2012, 10:30 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(10-03-2012, 10:21 PM)Walty Wrote: I agree with this Golden Myth about Christ being found in other religions, but that doesn't mean that the religious experiences themselves are always good.  That's far too close to the anonymous Christian to me.

When St. Paul said that one couldn't eat with pagans because their meat was blessed by demons, did that mean that those pagans were still experiencing God?

No, but I would say that they were acting out of a natural desire for God that was hijacked by the powers and principalities, resulting in a fall into demon worship.

I can agree with that, but even if demon worship has its roots in a natural inclination, it's worth condemning and setting apart in a "sectarian" fashion.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-04-2012

(10-03-2012, 10:36 PM)Walty Wrote: I can agree with that, but even if demon worship has its roots in a natural inclination, it's worth condemning and setting apart in a "sectarian" fashion.

But some (many?) here would absolutely go beserker if Pope Benedict decreed that it is alright for people in Africa to keep their traditional names of days after demon gods, and even their pagan name for Easter. I think some in our midst would line that up as another reason to condemn this "ecumenism" -- Benedict supports demon worship. And yet we have names after Germanic gods, and Easter as well. We actually have quite a few customs derived directly from our ancestors' demon worship. And the Church in that time did not see it fit to expunge them from the people. Some people's attitudes are not informed with history. Conversion entailed a reformation and transformation of beliefs, so that they did not profess or live by false doctrines, but it did not wash away all their customs, even ones some would think were inherently evil. (I mean, have your false demon gods honored by the names of days, and leaving that "blasphemy" on the lips of future generations of Catholics?!) So when some Protestant groups, like the Anglicans, come back, they're not going to be very different than before in many ways. We have to get used to the idea that Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, etc. have a patrimony that the Church will not require to be overturned in order to become Catholic. That's just my take.

I type this on the day of the demon god Thor. Yesterday was the day of Woden, and tomorrow is the day of his wife, the goddess Frigg.  :tiphat: to our pagan demonic ancestors.